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**OSS** · 11-24-2012, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by FESTUNGBREST View Post

You find his apology sobering and mature...

After all he's wasted everybody's time demanding that they authenticate such crap, disrespecting the opinions of illuminated members only to give up when utterly cornered and out breath...
Imagine the scenario of having purchased an item from such an individual....pathetic behavior.

I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt here. Many people here on the Forum are in denial concerning questionable relics, and are unwilling to accept contrary opinion no matter how convincing. It's not always easy to admit mistakes.

**derka** · 11-24-2012, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by OSS View Post

I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt here. Many people here on the Forum are in denial concerning questionable relics, and are unwilling to accept contrary opinion no matter how convincing. It's not always easy to admit mistakes.

i agree with OSS on this point; this a forum, no a court.
I would just suggest, before to ask opinions or questions, to use the search function on this forum, typing "panzer sidecap", and carefuly read ALL threads about this item.
imo, more than 90% of questions raised about this black headgear and criterias to apreciate its authenticity have already been discussed in those threads.
of course, this advice could be applied to lots of other items...
derka

**90th Light** · 11-24-2012, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by 1943collector View Post

Gents
I guess I must concede. I give up

Mine came from a well known big time dealer some years ago as original.
I just don't like to accept its bad but with all the guys saying its so chances are it is and I like the way some proof was finally brought to light more than just opinions.
I do apologize for being so stubborn but no one like's to hear they have a bad one or two especially when the dealer is still selling. Guess I will just stay away from hats.
best regards gentleman

I can understand the point that you were making.

You had bought this black panzer sidecap from a " well known big time dealer some years ago as original "

Now that is the point that no one seem s to have picked up on in your statement. It would seem reasonable to me, given that you now have a clearly identified red flag (stamps/ fonts) to approach this dealer and see if a refund or compromise is in order.

The "stubborn" defense that you were putting up was clearly coming from a belief that this dealer knows their stuff and would not have put you wrong. I can empathise how this would make you feel.

A golden rule is always judge the item not the dealer or the story. It is worth pointing out however, that there was un-necessary put downs and belittling of your position. This should not be happening on a forum like this, focussed on discussion of the item. No matter what circle one runs in in life or where one is in the picking order, put downs and belittling only leads to trouble, unhappiness and war. People are best to refrain from such behaviour because in the longer term it does nothing for their character or image.

You were asking for objective facts rather than subjective opinion which is not an unreasonable request given the matter, but it was in an abrupt manner. If one considers the level of frustration and breach of trust you were feeling. Plus that you may have to approach a dealer for a refund then perhaps we have our explaination of your position/ reaction.

The advise to look at the threads on the forum is good advise for sure. Studying old threads however, will only go so far in answering some questions. Sometimes you have to have the item in hand and physically handle other comparable examples to get the feel for the beast that you are up against.

Have a look at the threads listed below to see where the knowledge barrier of advanced collectors has been reached just like a sound barrier where we do not have an aeroplane fast enough to get through it and beyond.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...Panzer&page=10

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+Panzer&page=3

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=HG+Panzer

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=Panzer+M43

Also have a look at the image posted below. This stamp was in a black LW panzer sidecap which was accepted as original on this forum and later sold on the estand. I have never seen another "Willy Sprengpfeil" stamp like it ??? http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ly+Sprengpfeil. What is even more interesting. When I take another look at this makers stamp, it has a close/ similar font to the capital letter "B" in HAMBURG and the number "2" in 1942 as your stamp does. In fact the positon in the cap of the stamp is very close. Based on the images that I have of it, the liner looks also to be made of an almost exact material as your cap. Given what has been said on this thread, I now wonder where this now leaves the perceived originality of this cap by members,

Chris

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**PAOLORUBENS** · 11-24-2012, 04:44 PM

same here

... I can say the same about other " advanced DAK / Tropical collectors " ... like Mark & Mark ( thank you again guys ) , people is really helpful here and about papers and awards I have a moderator 30 min from home

... grazie Antonio

Originally posted by sam1chlt View Post

Thanks again everyone! I can't afford that kind of "mistake". The people on this forum have been extremely helpful to new collectors like myself! I greatly appreciate it!!

Regards,

Sam

**WalterB** · 11-25-2012, 12:31 AM

If anything, in this day an age, it is the burden of the proponent to establish that the item is, indeed, real.

**1943collector** · 11-25-2012, 11:23 AM

Gentleman
Thank you Chris (90th light ) for the scientific/intelligent approach to the cap question.
That's all I was asking for in the beginning and all I seemed to get was opinion's.
I understand opinion's are fine as opinion's but they do not prove or disprove all they do is cast doubt.
I guess being a Engineer for 40 something yrs. its hard for me to accept opinion's when I am and have been required to prove or back-up my statements with proof if ask to do so.
I also have been looking into the stamp question as this Font has a unusual letter "B" it is not the typical as the top is slightly rounded going into the top loop. This is significant to this character/font and might shed some light.
I totally agree with you on the cap interior material they look exactly the same.
Best and thanks again

**helmutderpa** · 11-29-2012, 08:06 AM

Hi guys,

This thread has risen a question to me.

Has someone of you already seen an original item bearing the word "Jahr" in front of the year (Jahr means year) in the maker stamp ?

I personnaly do not.

I am interested to hear your feed back.

Simon

**billbert** · 11-29-2012, 09:04 AM

Jahr..Yes..Billbert

**FESTUNGBREST** · 12-01-2012, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by helmutderpa View Post

Hi guys,

This thread has risen a question to me.

Has someone of you already seen an original item bearing the word "Jahr" in front of the year (Jahr means year) in the maker stamp ?

I personnaly do not.

I am interested to hear your feed back.

Simon

Yes, only in Obituaries,and this cap calls for an immediate one.

**billbert** · 12-01-2012, 06:58 PM

REAL Berlin LAGO caps also often show year and size..this is what the fake is poorly modelled on..Billbert

**Lenny W** · 12-03-2012, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by billbert View Post

REAL Berlin LAGO caps also often show year and size..this is what the fake is poorly modelled on..Billbert

markings on a trop cap not sure if it's good or not what you think Billbert

Attached Files

post-22203-0-80299000-1354189979.jpg (124.5 KB, 69 views)

**billbert** · 12-03-2012, 11:45 AM

I THINK it could be Lenny..I d like more pics but its stands a great chance..Billbert

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