sidecap's grommets again

[90th Light]

3/ more images,

Chris

[90th Light]

I look forward to what others have to say ???

And yes, the reason for the "1939" has been found plus field grey examples. It does however, throw another can of worms into this thread just like a 1942 dated M43 cap.

Chris

p.s. "zip & flip" (handsewn) eagle.

[derka]

Chris,

Bill Shea sold recently a black panzer sidecap with this compagny's stamp dated 1940, without soutache and with what looks to be a KM cocarde (not sure) :





but unfortunatly there was no inside wiew of its grommets.

the use of black and gray eagle and cocarde with a black background in 1939 is very odd imo.

[Tim O'Keefe]

I would think the construction and markings would be identical to a black CW cap made during the same time frame at the same facility.

One would think, but maybe not. CW was using the zip & flip earlier on the contenental caps and later hand sewn eagles on the tropical version with similar stamps from the Hamburg site. So in theory would the Pz caps be the same ? This does demonstrate that CW (at least) did use different insignia application from the same factory. Zip & flip was even earlier than i thought.

90th Light, thanks for posting the CW Pz cap from William in the other thread. As you noticed it has been overlooked...as i mentioned in the thread, would like to see the grommets on this one from the inside if possible ? Why its bad, if so ? (hard to tell from the photos, for me)

Chris 90th Lt & derka
Both the Grote caps look good to me. The cap sold by Bill looks to have the cockade added postwar. Notice the thread used to re-attach the false front.
When compared to 90th Lt's Grote example or OSS or Williams's CW's.

[Bond]

Some grommet interior shots.

[Bond]

Exteriors. Same cap.

[Bond]

The cap.

[OSS]

These caps were made in the millions by perhaps hundreds of manufacturers, so it is no surprise that you will encounter subtle variations in technique and construction. They were, however, made to Heer Bekleidungsamt specifications and should therefore have a somewhat consistant appearance. These threads where a few originals are scattered amoung a larger number of reproductions, some of which are being touted by seemingly knowledgeable collectors, are quite confusing for beginners and even longtime collectors who haven't had the opportunities to examine original specimens. There is a great amount of useful information on this Forum, but one needs to learn to separate the wheat from the chaff, which is not always easy.

[90th Light]

These caps were made in the millions by perhaps hundreds of manufacturers, so it is no surprise that you will encounter subtle variations in technique and construction. They were, however, made to Heer Bekleidungsamt specifications and should therefore have a somewhat consistant appearance. These threads where a few originals are scattered amoung a larger number of reproductions, some of which are being touted by seemingly knowledgeable collectors, are quite confusing for beginners and even longtime collectors who haven't had the opportunities to examine original specimens. There is a great amount of useful information on this Forum, but one needs to learn to separate the wheat from the chaff, which is not always easy.

Hello again OSS,

There is no point in arguing with what you state here except to say that it is general in nature and does not really add much to the study of grommets, eagle application or caps different from the norm which is the focus of this thread.

Action is always louder than words so lets look at the images below to see if I am getting it right or wrong. Pictured in the images below and in the following post number 55 are two grommets which were found in an M43 cap.

Now this is a factory produced M43 with grommets and I was told by advanced, experienced collectors on this forum that they did not make M43 caps with grommets. If you have an M43 with grommets then it is an M42 modified to an M43 or a fake M43. For several years I have held on to this cap, bewildered by the advice from those who had handled more than me. The price of this cap was not cheap and the reputation of the seller, the best in the market.

The advanced collectors said, "buy the cap not the story or the sellers reputation". Good advice for sure.

I never gave up on this cap however, I just put it to one side and kept up my study of what was good and what was not. If it was bad then I had been sold a dud, by one of the most respected dealers in the game. I knew however, that was not his style. There was also the possibility, those who had advised me had not seen this type of variation from the norm before. Thus it challenged the assumptions they had formulated over the years and generalised upon.

Any way here is the thread about this type of M43 cap with grommets from the days when "ebony" use to post my images on the forum for me http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=SS+M43+cap You can all read for yourselves how wrong I was

The danger, had I blindly accepted the advise of the experts at the time, I might have panicked and sold this cap for a fraction of the price that I had paid or it is worth. Instead, I put it to one side and kept up the study of such caps and the assumptions that we as collectors make about them.

Now if this is bad advice for new and experienced collectors then I do truely apologise but it is an honest account of my experiences to date.

Please note the type of grommet used without a backing plate. This is but yet another variation of a period grommet in use added to this thread for reference.

Please also look at the following post number 55,

Chris

[90th Light]

Here are the images of the grommet on the other side.

Now what got even more interesting. After the images of the cap were posted for me by "ebony" on this thread http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=SS+M43+cap, another experienced member on this forum contacted me and said that he knew this cap. It had been brought back from WW2 by an African American who had been a grave digger during the war. After the war, he had driven trucks and had worn this cap at times in his truck.

I suppose this is a case that I got the cap, it was finally judged in the right light and then I got the story. A happy ending which proved just how on to it that dealer was,

Chris

Please also look at this thread to see period images of such M43 caps with grommets being worn http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ss+m43+grommet

[90th Light]

Chris,

Bill Shea sold recently a black panzer sidecap with this compagny's stamp dated 1940, without soutache and with what looks to be a KM cocarde (not sure) :

but unfortunatly there was no inside wiew of its grommets.

the use of black and gray eagle and cocarde with a black background in 1939 is very odd imo.

Thank you for posting derka,

the study of the stamp, fonts, eagles and cockades in this example is very interesting indeed.

I am not sure but looking at the image you have put up in post number 48, that cap has possibly had a soutache but I would need it in hand to be able to say more.

Nice to see a 1940 dated example by this maker,

Chris

p.s. also thanks to "Bond" for images of the "classic crimped" grommet.

[derka]

yes it had a soutache.
idealy, if his new owner could see this subject, he might would post a wiew of grommets of this sidecap, for comparizon with those used on the 39 dated one.

[OSS]

Here are the images of the grommet on the other side.

Now what got even more interesting. After the images of the cap were posted for me by "ebony" on this thread http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=SS+M43+cap, another experienced member on this forum contacted me and said that he knew this cap. It had been brought back from WW2 by an African American who had been a grave digger during the war. After the war, he had driven trucks and had worn this cap at times in his truck.

I suppose this is a case that I got the cap, it was finally judged in the right light and then I got the story. A happy ending which proved just how on to it that dealer was,

Chris

Please also look at this thread to see period images of such M43 caps with grommets being worn http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ss+m43+grommet

I was hoping to, at the least, see an anomoly but sadly no. Perhaps you use the term "M-43" for any billed field cap but in my opinion the caps you seem to be referring to are not M-43s but a slightly earlier cap worn by both the SS and Luftwaffe. Most were manufactured in '42 and early'43. There is a pinned thread on these caps (Luftwaffe). The Luftwaffe models almost always have grommits, the SS ones sometimes do. Both models generally have a single button. These caps ceased to be made after the introduction of the true M-43, which I do not ever recall seeing with grommits. Of course; anything is possible.

[90th Light]

I was hoping to, at the least, see an anomoly but sadly no. Perhaps you use the term "M-43" for any billed field cap but in my opinion the caps you seem to be referring to are not M-43s but a slightly earlier cap worn by both the SS and Luftwaffe. Most were manufactured in '42 and early'43. There is a pinned thread on these caps (Luftwaffe). The Luftwaffe models almost always have grommits, the SS ones sometimes do. Both models generally have a single button. These caps ceased to be made after the introduction of the true M-43, which I do not ever recall seeing with grommits. Of course; anything is possible.

Would the "true M-43" please step forward

Chris

[90th Light]

I was hoping to, at the least, see an anomoly but sadly no. Perhaps you use the term "M-43" for any billed field cap but in my opinion the caps you seem to be referring to are not M-43s but a slightly earlier cap worn by both the SS and Luftwaffe. Most were manufactured in '42 and early'43. There is a pinned thread on these caps (Luftwaffe). The Luftwaffe models almost always have grommits, the SS ones sometimes do. Both models generally have a single button. These caps ceased to be made after the introduction of the true M-43, which I do not ever recall seeing with grommits. Of course; anything is possible.

Both these caps are posted on this thread http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=SS+M43+cap so again would the "true M-43" please take a step forward ???

Chris