sidecap's grommets again

[90th Light]

Side views of a couple of no nonsense SS M43's with trap & two button flap to compare with those shown in post number 60.

I have the same situation with my LW M43's, some have two button flaps and others sometimes have a one button flap. Some have two badges, eagle and cockade while others have a trap. It seems to depend on the who made the M43 cap and if it was made in 1943, 44 or 45. The LW caps with a single button and grommets are the "Bergmutze" shown in this thread http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=357822 but they usually have short bill/ visor.

Chris

p.s. I do not use the term "M43" generically across the board. I use M34, M40, M42 etc depending upon the first year that the cap officially entered service,

[OSS]

Both these caps are posted on this thread http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=SS+M43+cap so again would the "true M-43" please take a step forward ???

Chris

Neither cap is an M-43 and calling them M-43s will not change that.

[OSS]

Sadly the name M-42 has already been taken, if you want you could call your caps M42+1/2.

[90th Light]

Sadly the name M-42 has already been taken, if you want you could call your caps M42+1/2.

Hello again OSS,

it does really not matter what we call them but you yourself are now coming up with theories and classifications to explained what does not fit neatly into what is usually assumed to be the case.

The fact is that the SS billed cap with grommets and long bill was made before May 1945 and brought back from WW2 by an American veteran. For a number of years however, I was told by advanced collectors that it was a fake because there were no such original versions of that type of cap made with grommets,

Chris

[derka]

here is another exemple of grommet with "small" splits :



and what do you think of this one ?

[OSS]

Hello again OSS,


The fact is that the SS billed cap with grommets and long bill was made before May 1945 and brought back from WW2 by an American veteran. For a number of years however, I was told by advanced collectors that it was a fake because there were no such original versions of that type of cap made with grommets,

Chris

Both you and the "advanced collectors" are correct in some respects. The Luftwaffe and, to a lesser degree, the W-SS both made billed field caps with grommits. While the SS did not generally date their caps, the Luftwaffe did and many of these single button billed field caps are dated '42, that is, manufactured before the adoption of the Einheitsfeldmutze (M-43) which as a rule, had a two button front, no grommits, and a longer bill like the last one you pictured (W-SS).

[90th Light]

Both you and the "advanced collectors" are correct in some respects. The Luftwaffe and, to a lesser degree, the W-SS both made billed field caps with grommits. While the SS did not generally date their caps, the Luftwaffe did and many of these single button billed field caps are dated '42, that is, manufactured before the adoption of the Einheitsfeldmutze (M-43) which as a rule, had a two button front, no grommits, and a longer bill like the last one you pictured (W-SS).

Hello again OSS,

I understand and take on board what you are saying. Yes as a "rule of thumb" especially for a new collector, any "true M-43" cap with grommets is more than likely to be a reproduction. In fact it probably will be.

My SS M43 shown in post number 59 & 60 however, proves that there are always period exceptions to the rule out there. In fact this SS M43 cap shows two exceptions;

1/ an M43 like cap with grommets
2/ no backing washer to the grommet inside the cap

The danger is when a cap like this SS M43 is dismissed as a reproduction because of the grommets. This is what I was told when advanced collectors saw photos of it many years ago. Shattered because it had come from a top USA dealer, I almost sold it very cheap, just to be rid of a mistake or so I thought. Thank goodness I did not, instead putting it to one side in the question mark box and keeping up my study of such caps. This is the point that I am making, there are period variations from the norm out there and one has to be able to pick them or you may miss the treasure right in front of your eyes.

Now coming to your theory about there being "M-42 & 1/2" caps predating the "true M-43". I am not adverse to this idea. In fact I support it which may explain the odd original 1942 dated M43 that has turned up now and then. Given your many years of experience, those you interact with and the number of top notch items in your own collection. I know, what you are putting forward is based on a sound, thought out foundation and not just a flippant observation.

To this end, I have attached images of other caps which have come to me directly from veterans. These ones do not seem to fit into one world "M43" or the other "M42". They have many of the characteristics that you describe of an "M42 & 1/2" yet none have grommets ??? and some have other characteristics not yet classified ??? .

May be be the study of the "M42 & 1/2" is worth a thread in its own right. I agree that such a beast would appear to exist but have we the collecting community identified all its idiosyncrasies ???

Chris

p.s. please note that the caps on the top have short "bergmutze" type bills/ visors where as the caps on the bottom have the longer "M43" type bill/ visor

[90th Light]

More images of what may be the "M42 & 1/2"

One more observation about the SS M43 ( M42 & 1/2 ??? ) in post numbers 59 & 60. This type of SS M43 is a prevalent model seen in period images with the eagle and skull stacked on top of each other & single button flap to the front. You see this version a lot in the photos and because of that, they are a very sought after cap today. This makes one wonder just how many could have been made in the period late 42 to early 43 ??? . On the other hand, was this SS model made through out 1943 and into 1944 ??? Hence why images of SS M43's with traps being worn are a rare find today ???

There is much that we still do not know,

Chris

[90th Light]

Side view comparison of bill/ visor length,

Chris

[OSS]

I suppose I should have mentioned that I have seen (and owned) several LW M-43 caps that were manufactured with a single button (yet no grommits). These are truly variations which were instances where allowances were made for the use of two piece insignia (IMO). I have never seen a single button LW M-43 with a trapazoidal (one piece) insignia. I should also mention that I am guilty of referring to these earlier caps as "single button M-43s" to simplify discussion. I am ashamed to further admit that I have used the term "M-41" in reference to the tropical field cap and we all know how erroneous that is.

[90th Light]

I suppose I should have mentioned that I have seen (and owned) several LW M-43 caps that were manufactured with a single button (yet no grommits). These are truly variations which were instances where allowances were made for the use of two piece insignia (IMO). I have never seen a single button LW M-43 with a trapazoidal (one piece) insignia. I should also mention that I am guilty of referring to these earlier caps as "single button M-43s" to simplify discussion. I am ashamed to further admit that I have used the term "M-41" in reference to the tropical field cap and we all know how erroneous that is.

Hello again OSS,

You make a good point, I too have never seen a single button M43 with a factory applied trap that I thought was 101% period and had been together since before May 1945.

In regard to the other "single button" examples with no grommets to which you are refer. I believe the one pictured below dated 1944 which "Gerard/Relic Hunter" posted on WAF some time ago is such a cap. I agree that the likely reason for this variation is probably to make allowance for the "two piece insignia". This had always been my belief about the SS examples (post numbers 59 & 60) with the one button flap. They were simply a variation to allow for the eagle & skull to be worn on the front of the cap above the button.

My feeling is that the WH officer example and the LW single button with long bills/ visors which I have shown in post numbers 67 to 69 are also such M43 variants. The other two caps however, with short bills/ visors are more likely to be M42 & 1/2 transistional models,

Chris

p.s. I am not too hung up on what we call caps i.e. M40, M41, M42 etc as long as we all agree so we can understand each other. Using the year of official designation/ adoption makes sense (IMO)

[90th Light]

In reply to the email that I received, yes there might be SS M43 caps with a single button flap and a period applied trap. I have added to this post, two images of such a cap pictured in books on the subject. One of these images comes from the Schiffer book by authors Beaver & Shea so it has good credentials. Personally however I have never seen a period photo of a SS M43 with a single button flap and a trap being worn during the war. May be someone has such a photo and could add it to this thread.

Also in reply to another question in that email, yes grommets/ eyelets in such a cap may indicate 1942 production. A full leather sweat band may also indicate 1942 production as opposed to 1943,

Chris

[STUG III]

side cap grommet

How about this one? DL.

[90th Light]

How about this one? DL.

Hello STUG III,

based on the image that you have posted, which is not as clear as I would like. Your grommet appears to be OK and of pre-May 45 manufacture if it matches this one.

You can see part of the makers stamp so perhaps you will recognise the manufacturer if your cap is also stamped,

Chris

[derka]

Hello STUG III,

based on the image that you have posted, which is not as clear as I would like. Your grommet appears to be OK and of pre-May 45 manufacture if it matches this one.

You can see part of the makers stamp so perhaps you will recognise the manufacturer if your cap is also stamped,

Chris

Chris,

you are teasing us, naughty boy !
btw, tha last grommet's pic i posted is from a M42 sidacap, and a fake imo.
just in case someone would be interested by my humbe opinion.
actualy for sale on a pro dealer site...
derka