Panzer Headgear Collection-Be Careful

[billbert]

I m speechless... Billbert

[90th Light]

Given where this thread is going, I think we would be wiser to use our energies to discuss each of the caps, each in turn as Ben has suggested.

Are they all blantant fakes designed to sucker in the dumb, the blind and the stupid ??? or are some variations from the norm/ text book and tailor made ???

I am not interested in getting into a pissing match about this. We all know in our own hearts if we are sincere in what we have posted about Richard since he died. If we are not then "Karma" will come for you sooner or later. Having sat through out the night with a close relative (who was in WW2 incidently) as they passed away. Something cross my mind that they said to me as a child, "when it comes I hope it will not hurt too much". All should reflect on that, because how we treat others and behave towards them will have an impact on how we leave this earth.

Now enough sentiment from me, lets discuss the pros and cons of the caps and see just how much we do and do not know about caps which are not straight from the box. I will repeat here, I have my reservations and some would certainly not be ones for my collection. I will also repeat that when it comes to variation/ tailor caps, many collectors lack real hands on experience.

Could some one please post the images of the caps from the uniform thread on this thread. I would do it myself but I do not know how to make the nice large versions of each image which are now appearing on the other thread,

Chris

[Leroy]

In that case Sir, me thinks you would have been in need of hospitalization had you the misfortune of purchasing one of the items featured by this (or the uniform) thread.
B. N. Singer

Not to worry, Bryon, not to worry.

I believe it would be productive to proceed as Chris has just suggested.....

[Beersheba4thLH]

Army Panzer General's Field Cap
Our Price: $4,095.00

[Beersheba4thLH]

Army Panzer General's Field Cap
Our Price: $3,995.00

[Beersheba4thLH]

Army Panzer General's Field Cap
Our Price: $4,195.00

[panzer nco]

As other's have all ready stated, This is not a PERSONAL ATTACK on Richard.

Why would someone do that ?? Its Pointless & Heartless to do that to someone that's not here to defend himself.

I beleive Glenn is doing everyone a FAVOUR here by stating the Ovious IMO.


It would be Gutrenching to purchase a item of that value then finding out its a dud.


I beleive we owe it to Glenn & others that bring these things into the open.


Thankyou Glenn !!!!!!!


Mike.

[Glenn McInnes]

Given where this thread is going, I think we would be wiser to use our energies to discuss each of the caps, each in turn as Ben has suggested.

Are they all blantant fakes designed to sucker in the dumb, the blind and the stupid ??? or are some variations from the norm/ text book and tailor made ???

Now enough sentiment from me, lets discuss the pros and cons of the caps and see just how much we do and do not know about caps which are not straight from the box. I will repeat here, I have my reservations and some would certainly not be ones for my collection. I will also repeat that when it comes to variation/ tailor caps, many collectors lack real hands on experience.


Chris

I don't think anyone is interested in arguing with you about why fake hats "just might" be original,I know I sure don't have the energy or the time really.Not to sound rude and I know I can be blunt,but you have a reputation for doing just that.

Anyone can make excuses as to why fake private purchase hats might be real..Why? because they are private purchase so the excuse list is endless as they could have been produced by several hundred private tailors,including post war tailors so it will never get anywhere.

I don't like the shape of several (cut),most linings,any of the vent grommets,some real insignia,some fake,stamps/markings etc.,,And most of all they just don't have "the look" of something I would expect to see in an original hat.

I think,if you are a sharp collector that if you ever see an original,lets say a black General officer overseas hat then you will know it right away,no excuses....If you have to keep looking at it scratching your head wondering,then I think it is best for you to pass on it.

Just my thoughts on this whole crazy hobby.




Glenn

[Zauberflöte]

....

I think,if you are a sharp collector that if you ever see an original,lets say a black General officer overseas hat then you will know it right away,no excuses....If you have to keep looking at it scratching your head wondering,then I think it is best for you to pass on it.
.....


Glenn

My thoughts exactly and said many times before. This in my book is the only satisfying way in collecting!

It also could end many fruitless discussions.

F.

[90th Light]

I am not making excusses or arguing about anything.

My request is quite simple and any collector who has handled many "tailor made" or even several officer M38's would be able to answer it.

If we focus on the period indicators, do the caps stack up or not ???

In fact instead of talking about it, lets get on and do it for each one.

Action is always louder than words and I thank "Beersheba4thLH" for adding the images. A good start,

Chris

[Z19]

I looked carefully at them last night and have to be honest and say that some did not take my fancy. There were certain points that were questionable to say the least.

What this confirmed for me however, is that they were not "one lookers" and not what I have encountered from beyond doubt sources. It does not confirm 100% that all are bad/ fake. More investigation is needed before one can conclude.

The tailor made caps were the most intriguing and more than one could be correct and of pre-May 45 manufacture. Show me who has the experience/ examples to be able to make the a final deciding call. When it comes to tailor made German sidecaps (officer & ranks), it depends on what each individual collector has seen/ experienced. No two are ever alike even from the same tailor, because they were made to each customers specifications and wallet at the time.

I agree that a panzer generals black sidecap is a very rare find based on the law of probability alone, but low probabilities does not mean that there are not any to be found. Such a cap would be very appealing to an allied soldier in 1945 if he had the chance to get his hands on it to bring home.

Chris

You guys that know me and have talked with me know I am not an argumentative type person and I try and get along with everybody. I tend to listen more than I speak, thats how one learns and forms informative opinions. With that being said I tend to agree with the above portion of Chris' post. When dealing with tailor made items one is taking a tiger by the tail to say the least. Just because one tiger might bite you though doesn't mean the others will. Throwing all these tailor made items in a junk pile may be a bit premature. There have been dozens and dozens of period photos posted on this very website over the past few years that simply blew the "rules" for collecting certain items out of the water. There is no hard and fast rule for collecting tailor made items, it just takes a big set.....and a wallet big enough to absorb the loss if you are proven (without a doubt) wrong. Alex

[Glenn McInnes]

There is no hard and fast rule for collecting tailor made items, it just takes a big set.....and a wallet big enough to absorb the loss if you are proven (without a doubt) wrong. Alex

Well,$4K for an original black panzer/gold piped General officers overseas hat is a real bargain,they are exceedingly rare...I would have thought they would have been snapped up at those prices (I know I would have jumped on one).


Willing to take a gamble?





Glenn

[Leroy]

I think privately tailored and privately purchased items are an absolute minefield. This is why, in the collections we have seen of our resident "experts" we rarely, if ever, see such an item. It is, bluntly, much safer (and a great deal easier IMO) to stick with "textbook" pieces. The criticism of "non-standard" items is intense but, to a great degree, however, I must say that I would agree with Glenn that if you saw a real Panzer general's cap "in the flesh" (not photos, no matter how good) you would probably "just know" whether it was real. That is an indefinable quality, but it is real. There are many who would not buy such a piece, even if they felt it was real, because they worry that they could never convince the "marketplace" of originality. That is a matter of personal choice for any collector.

The discussion of privately purchased/ tailored items is not useless, but it is frustrating.

[OSS]

These caps seem to be more common than period photos of General der Panzertruppen wearing such things. As for the General of Sturmgeschutz troops (wrapper)? These units were organized in Abteilungs, Battailons and Brigades often the commanding officer was a Hauptmann but not a higher rank than Major. I believe such a garment to be a "fantasy" item.

[Tim O'Keefe]

As for the General of Sturmgeschutz troops (wrapper)? These units were organized in Abteilungs, Battailons and Brigades often the commanding officer was a Hauptmann but not a higher rank than Major. I believe such a garment to be a "fantasy" item.

Agree STG's were in Bn's under a Major unless there was a STG Div