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    #76
    another hat with complete bullion piping. Sense a trend???

    The cross is the same type as noted on the Adolf Schlicht photo from Mark Hayden. The cross again, fits into one of those pieces perfectly. The cross is again, a attempt to make a gothic all arms equal cross. They didnt exist in the III Reich period as far as I can tell. Imperial, yes, Heer -- no. This cross is also so heavy in the silver bullion is does not appear to match fine embrodiery of the III Reich. What do I mean, I'm going to jump ahead for one second.
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      #77
      More first -- again the cross is a repro. So far, most of the hats I have posted have embroidered cross, wreath, and eagle. How many do you see in the photos I have posted???
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        #78
        Chaplain, at a rear posistion at a maintained cemetary. Metal cross
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          #79
          Now what is the standard in German embroidery??? Look at the crosses on the hat, and compare them to this. THIS is the standard I expect when I see crosses, wreaths, SS runes, oak leaves, etc.... if it does not have this detal, and was not run over by a T34, I would pass

          (these tabs were mine by the way, Rich just took much better photos than I did )
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            #80
            Originally posted by km-spain View Post
            Chris, amazing job, thanks for share with all us this interesting information, and when about the Kriegsmarine?



            I agree with you, but if these badges are based on KM desing, why there are no copies of these?, I have seen a lot of fake collar tabs but not cap 2nd type insignias from same source.
            Hi Eduardo,

            What I think the fakers have done, is after they made a 2nd style bullion Kriegsmarine tab, the retooled the size and just made the cross without the tab. The fake 2nd model Kriegs tabs' cross is very close to the gothic embroidered cross we see on some of the fake caps. I wonder, did they change the material from deep navy blue, to field grey, and then just embroider a gothic cross. This cross could be folded upon itself to just be a simple cross, rather than a tab.

            For the other types that have nothing to do with the Navy style, I think the fakers just took a guess. Honestly that is all I can come up with. The fakers have been reproducing navy tabs for years, and mostly field bishop ones which makes no sense overall.

            This honestly is the only thing I could come up with. There is virtually no information on these fakes, and the few dealers I KNOW have information on this are not shareing

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              #81
              Chris, thansk for your answer, I see your point.
              Collector of Kriegsmarine and Küstenartillerie items

              Regards
              Eduardo

              Collecting Kriegsmarine !!!: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=725610

              sigpic "Deutsche Kriegsmarine"

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                #82
                Originally posted by Chris Liontass View Post
                Another bad cross out there. Again, goting "style" but not a 3d gothic cross. The cross is a stamped cross out of metal with no silver wash and does not conform to the known pattern. Additionally the cross on the visor, was on this overseas cap a friend shared with me. There was a problem with the OS cap and possible replaced insignia. There was no wear on where it was placed. My friend didnt keep the cap, but retured it to the seller. (this was a long time ago) The crosses are darn near the same. This was around about 1999. The people trying to remake these hats began to try to use more metal items.

                -- is this cross genuine to the period??? I honestly have seen this type on several Frankies...judge the hat in a case like this. Again, my opinion --- I would rather have a hat without a cross than one like this until someone shows me it in wear.
                Another version of this bad insignia on a crusher cap. Again I never saw these in a photo, and never in any auction cataloug before 2000. I am again, betting that information with the internet began to surface, allowing fakers to attempt a quick correction
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                  #83
                  Another crusher, another zinc cross on what appears to be a attempted conversion of the normal visor. I talked this hat over with several collectors, and they didnt like it. Now added to that, is the zinc cross.

                  Again, I think more of a 60-70's repro. (that and the eagle screams, bock bock!! )
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                    #84
                    Thought I would add this one for a little comic relief. I have no idea WHAT this faker was thinking
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                      #85
                      Another two hats. The first is believed to be an original. The hat has the same pattern of bullion cross, bullion insigna -- the cross is better than we have seen, but it looks almost like at one time it was once piece with the wreath. I presonally do not like the insignia.

                      Second is the latest Cyrus Lee of Soldat fame fake (and sold as such) He is attempting to get closer and closer to the look of the real III Reich cross. His original effort was horrible. The guys who make the repro stuff are constantly reading the same forums and buying the same books we do.

                      Know the history of the item, as in who owned it before you. Get an idea of where it came from. If it sounds too good to be true, take your $5-6000.00 and go to Vegas with several beautiful companions. Trust me, you will be happier than buying the hat.
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                        #86
                        Now I wanted to show off a couple hat photos since I have had for years. Some are from refernce books, some are from forums, several are hats that sold in auctions in the late 90's I believe. Look at all the hats. In doing this, you can compare the insignia that is right, with the stuff that is questionable, with the stuff that is outright wrong.

                        Again I think fakers didnt have access to the information we do today. This is the one big advantage in eliminating 99% of these old caps, since the majority of them have horrible insignia.

                        first off....Bullion and a silver washed metal cross. The silver metal is good, the bullion never was produced in the III Reich. Look at:

                        The spaceing difference between the insignia. The construction of the hat isself with the huge flare to the bullion one, and the one piece set of wreath and cross (did not exist)
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                        Last edited by Chris Liontass; 09-04-2012, 09:15 PM.

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                          #87
                          Another, zinc cross. Better insignia--but the same zince cross. Would make me wonder when the insignia was placed on the hat

                          It makes no sense that this is a "late war" hat -- excusing the zinc cross. If that was so, the eagle and wreath would be in zinc also. Why wash the wreath and eagle, but not the cross ??
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                          Last edited by Chris Liontass; 09-04-2012, 09:17 PM.

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                            #88
                            Small version gothic style cross. Again....Erel??? With a wierd non standard cross squished inbetween the eagle and wreath?? I dont think so, esspecially on an Erel
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                              #89
                              A good comparison of metal crosses. The one on the top right should be the standard we are looking for. I still believe it was added later to the hat. The spaceing is too narrow...that goes for the one on the upper right as well. Too close.

                              The bottom one I have never seen before or since. Due to that, maybe it is ok, just an "odd duck" as we did see in one photo. (I reposed it) "Odd ducks" did exist....just never expect to find one (and if you do--you won the lottery!! )
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                                #90
                                Erel hatt with bullion wreath -- eagle-- and metal cross. I would love to have closer shots of this one or know where it came from.
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