Clemens Wagner M40 dated March '42 for discussion ?

[NZMark]

2

[Mark Gibson]

Thanks Mark G for the added pic of the CW Pz cap stamp and grommets. Remember this very well made cap too, opinion was split down the middle on it. Like the grommets on this one too. The difference in the type of grommets used is simply the different years in construction between the two caps. imo. Doubt if the Germans cared at all which type was used.

Also thanks to NZMark for the additional comments. Agree the age and owner timeline on the thread-starter are very important in determining if this cap and the others are good. Very doubtful the fakers were putting these out in the mid 70's, there was no big market for them back them only in recent times. This cap has everything going for it imo.

And Thanks Matt & Tony for the positive statements. I too would be very pleased to have this cap in my collection someday.

Also thanks to those of You that have sent pm's or em's confirming the cap as a good one. And the one that did not. So perhaps we have confirmed that CW did in fact produce the tropical M40 afterall.

Would like to still hear from more of our members if they like this cap or not ?

Heia Safari
Tim

Tim,
The difference in the grommets is most unusual considering that other cap makers use the same grommets for all of their caps. Using the excuse of different years of construction can be very dangerous in ascertaining if something is good or bad and is often used by collectors with bad items to justify what they have.
Your comment about there being no big market for these in the 70's is also quite misleading. Fakers have been producing high quality items since well before then. A perfect example is a certain panzer wrap which was at the height of discussion a few years ago, produced in the 70's.
I certainly would love to know who has confirmed that the cap is a good one. Liking a cap is not confirmation that it was produced in the early 1940's.

Mark

[NZMark]

Mark,
Very valid points and I cannot argue with the logic - but what would constitute 'proof'?
We have seen examples here on the forum where veteran caps, found and bought directly from veteran's families - with no break in ownership chain, are dismissed as post-war fictions. In one specific case, a very knowledgeable member was basically called a liar for producing a cap he has (and collected directly from the veteran's family) in an arguement on m43's. The 'advanced collector' who dismissed those caps wound up looking petty, petulant and ignorant all in one go - a hard task, but achieved with ease due to bringing personality into his 'arguement' (if it could even stretch to be called that).
So - how to prove originality if even direct provenance is excluded?
Looking forward to more discussion,
Mark.

[Mark Gibson]

Mark,
I don't exclude direct provenance back to WW2. I'll leave that to others. If there is direct provenance for any of these caps then that would go a very long way to proving that they are original. Unfortunately proof is one of the hardest things with any item. How do we prove that anything we collect is original? That is something I cannot answer.
As for this cap, well, I have tried to help despite my feelings about it and I haven't seen anything that will change my opinion....yet.

Take care

Mark

[90th Light]

Hello Tim,
Those grommets definitely aren't pretty at all, in fact they would be considered extremely rough for any "original" cap. Maybe a little too rough in my eyes.
Here is another set from another of these Clemens Wagner marked caps; distinctly different from this cap.
If you look closely you may see more similarities and differences.

Mark

Hello Mark G,

the grommets in the "1940" example which you have shown in post number 39 look to be crimped in in the correct fashion and 100% correct. Are they steel or zinc ?

In fact the liner looks really good and is what one would expect to see although it is a bit over soiled.

What is the story with this cap Mark and where did it turn up ?

Chris

[Mark Gibson]

Hello Mark G,

the grommets in the "1940" example which you have shown in post number 39 look to be crimped in in the correct fashion and 100% correct. Are they steel or zinc ?

In fact the liner looks really good and is what one would expect to see although it is a bit over soiled.

What is the story with this cap Mark and where did it turn up ?

Chris

Chris,
One which you have already declared to be a very good reproduction.
http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...clemens+wagner

Mark

[90th Light]

Chris,
One which you have already declared to be a very good reproduction.
http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...clemens+wagner

Mark

Thanks Mark,

I had forgotten about that one. Funny thing the grommets looked good then too.

Do the grommets look like steel or zinc to you ?

Following this all with interest,

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

Tim,
The difference in the grommets is most unusual considering that other cap makers use the same grommets for all of their caps. Using the excuse of different years of construction can be very dangerous in ascertaining if something is good or bad and is often used by collectors with bad items to justify what they have.
Your comment about there being no big market for these in the 70's is also quite misleading. Fakers have been producing high quality items since well before then. A perfect example is a certain panzer wrap which was at the height of discussion a few years ago, produced in the 70's.
I certainly would love to know who has confirmed that the cap is a good one. Liking a cap is not confirmation that it was produced in the early 1940's.

Mark

Hi Mark

Thanks for your comments. Most of the comments lean towards "I like it" (which means they think it is an original WWII cap). That i have received. The three previous owners have extensive knowledge in tropical collecting...

Why are both these caps gromments questioned ? They appear to be two different types which are both excepted as good. See in Figueroa's, volume 2, Tropical Headgear of the German Wehrmacht in WWII. On the bottom right of page 52, there is an example of a "pretty", finely made grommet. (similar to the PZ cap ) The splits are nicely formed and don't overhang the washer. Compare that with the bulky, crude looking splits that fold over the washer found on the top of page 44. (which are silmilar to the Cav cap threadstarter)
Does not make any sense that both caps are thought to be bad even though they both have good grommet sets (just different) ?

If the materials, construction, insignia are all good then its a good cap. Contrary to whether or not someone believes the maker never made them.
Whoever has seen the very most (maybe 1,000 caps) of all collectors still has only seen a very very small amount of the 1,000,000 M40's produced during the War...

Also disagree that there was a big market for tropical caps in the '70s, there was not. Tropenhelms were $5 then. What was a soutached M40 going for, a few hundred ? And the advanced collectors stated these "high end fakes" did not come out till the late 80's or early 90's, yet this cap has been around at least since the mid 70's ? No disputing that.

Here is a later style M40 with some ugly grommets just for another look.

http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H022265.html

[Mark Gibson]

Also disagree that there was a big market for tropical caps in the '70s, there was not.

You can disagree all you like but I'm sure that quite a few collectors would be able to set you straight about that.

Mark

[90th Light]

Tropical M40's were certainly desirable in the 1970's but they fetched no were near the crazy prices that they sell for today.

To show you what I mean, a New Zealand brought back officers M40 dated 1941 by a very desirable maker with an Artillery red soutach, complete with eagle & cockade and slightly faded was sold by Wallis & Wallis in England for 65 English pounds in 1979.

My friend went on holiday over there and took three tropical M40's and one tropical sidecap with him to sell for spending money. All caps were NZ veteran brought back. The officers example made the highest price and he thought that was pretty good at the time.

Sad thing was, I meet him a year later and if he had known me before the event then I could have purchased all 4 as they were of little interest to him

Chris

[NZMark]

Chris,
Interesting story - but also contradictory.
65Pds was a lot of money back then, we know - but the worldwide market was small in relation to todays mass feeding frenzy for militaria. Tim is quite correct in this respect. Setting up the whole process to manufacture absolutely correct caps would not have been a viable option, I am certain. Then comes the logic that these fakers would be wanting good money to recoup their investment - thus selling to a select few who could afford their product - knowledgable, well off collectors. Again - this reduces the market for an especially high end fake.
Lastly - the amount of very poor fakes from the 1970's (that sometimes can still surface) show a progressive level of sophistication to fool the collector. These caps show absolutely no relation to the caps' shown.

Regards,
Mark

[90th Light]

Hello Mark,

I certainly did not mean to be contradictory.

My aim was to put forward some facts about what such caps did sell for in the 1970's.

Here is another way of looking at it, if we say that the value of money doubles every 4 years which is open to debate in more ways than one

but lets say for the sake of this thread that it is every 4 years then

UK 65 pounds over 32 years is 65 X 8 = UK 520 pounds.

Now I repeat that others could argue and rightly so that the value of money has increased at a slower rate over the last 32 years and I have no problem with that but UK 520 pounds does sort of put my tropical M40 artillery officers cap late 1970's price in perspective as to the level of demand for these caps back then compared with today.

Badges, certain medals and uniforms were a side-show compared to firearms, Japanese swords and armour back then.

Even in the mid 1980's, I was picking up reasonable single decal German helmets for between US$50 to US$100 and some thought I was mad paying those prices,

Chris

[NZMark]

I hear ya' brother!
Even 5 years ago - m35's in untouched condition could be found for $500. (NOT $3500.)
My point is supply and demand, not so much actual price. The market for a high end fake m40 in the 1970's, of this quality, would be limited in comparison to today's frenzy of collecting. (Hell, I just place a photo as an example on he forum and I get bombarded with 'Wanna sell it?' pm's).
The end game of the fakers was to produce a high end item to sell to those who could pay the big bucks & make their profit sooner than later. So - produce few and sell at a high price, or manufacture dozens and sell at a lower price to a wider market to those who could afford them? Remember - although the rate of information exchange was slower than today it was still a case of selling these quickly before it became 'common' knowledge that they were fakes.
But we can talk this in circles. More experienced collectors than me have owned this cap and believe in it - & their collective experience should count for something.
Regards,
Mark

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Chris & Mark

Thanks for the info on the status of collecting M40's back in the 70's. Sure a few guys were collecting back then but the demand for these caps did not match todays thirst for them by any means or dollars.

Here is a CW sidecap offered by one of the best mods on this forum, check out these grommets....

http://www.virtualgrenadier.com/sfra...if&p=sale_item

Also recently heard back from one of the most advanced DAK collectors on the CW M40 with the CAV soutache and he says this four line stamp & cap details match exactly to two CW M40's that he owns, including an Officers version.
Don't think there is any doubt now that CW made the M40 and that these caps labled bad by a few collectors years ago are in fact original.

Too bad none of them can admit they have been wrong all these years....

Heia Safari !
Tim

[90th Light]

Hello Tim,

Back in the 1970's and the 1980's tropical M40's with soutache did not last longer than a day on a dealers list and overall, one hardly ever saw an early one for sale. My ones came from veterans or off other collectors who had got them from veterans. They have always been very hard to find and desirable.

The biggest challenge as I see it Tim, not one tropical M40 made by CW with bill has ever surfaced from a veteran source as far as I know ???

and is there any photographic evidence of caps with that charateristic and profile being worn at the time ???

Personally I would be delighted if they are the real deal but those who have collected a long time and handled a lot more tropical items than myself keep coming back to these sticking points.

There has never ever been one of these tropical M40's made by CW turn up in New Zealand and by stating this, I putting out the challenge for any collector reading to show a tropical M40's which has. In fact lets extended it, does any Australian collector have a tropical M40 made by CW veteran brought back ???

Very interesting thread and are they "real deal" or not,

Chris