Clemens Wagner M40 dated March '42 for discussion ?

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Mark

Thanks for adding more to this discussion. I should have spoken more precisely on Ben's thread. CW had at least 3 different types of makers stamps on tropical "headgear".
The "standard" oval stamp everyone agrees with, found on the sidecaps. The 4 line stamp found on the sunhelmets and the tropical LW MTN cap similar to the M43, and some M40's. Then the version with an oval that only lists Braunschweig on the lower line inside the oval.

Will Quote Ralph from an earlier thread on the LW MTN cap "One example is owned by Dick Lafayette, It came from a US vet who picked it up in Italy. The cap has fully functional ear flaps lined with blue/gray wool. It's dated 1942". Look in (Dal's book), Rommel's Army in Africa on page 11 and you'll see GFM Kesselring wearing this same model cap in 1942 on a trip to N. Africa to meet with Rommel and he's seen talking with his staff. There are a number of photos of GFM Kesselring in N. Africa wearing this cap in 1942."

See this thread for a couple photos of this cap belonging to Dick. Post # 15 & the stamp on post # 20.

http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthread.php?t=335628

And some Officers M40's, which have been declared fake by You & some other knowledgeable collectors, but original by others (not talking about me here).

Here is a quote from me in an earlier thread.
"The Collector's Guide to Cloth Third Reich Military Headgear by Gary Wilkins has a lot of information on Clemens Wagner including several ads of theirs which detail the fact that Hamburg was their "branch factory" and Braunschweig was their main factory. "Betriebsleitung nur Braunschweig" in that four line stamp means "Administration only at Braunschweig." So two factorys, one in Hamburg, and the larger one in Braunschweig...The 4 line stamp indicates that the sunhelmets, the LW MTN cap and possibly these other M40's with the 4 line stamp were made at the Hamburg location not in Braunschweig. The sidecaps with the "standard" oval stamp were all made in the larger factory in Brauschweig.

Some of the CW caps are stamped with an oval that only lists Braunschweig on the lower line inside the oval including one Wilkins shows that is dated 1943."

Agree that CW caps are widely faked including the caps with the with incorrect spelling of Braunschweig and the twin cities version.

One of the problems we encounter with all collectors is that their opinions are based on only what they have seen themselves. With over 1,000,000 M40's being made in Germany during the War, even the most advanced collectors have seen only a small fraction of 1% of them....

The "Beehive" cache did prove very valuable to all collectors (whether you collect mint or salty items) in that over 1,000 mint tropical caps were discovered. But again this is just a small fraction of what was produced.

I too look forwards to seeing more of Ralph's CW M40 cap....

Always enjoy reading your opinions and extensive knowledge on the DAK, Mark.

take very good care
Tim

[Mark Gibson]

Hello Tim,

I'd like to see the Officer M40's by Clemens Wagner which "I" have declared to be fake. If I have considered a cap to be fake, it's only because it has a number of issues, not just a makers stamp. As I'm still just learning about tropical caps and not an expert, I'm always very open to studying caps that I haven't seen before. If I see an issue with caps (ala Hans Brandt tropical M40) I'll definitely highlight that for other collectors.

As for Dick Lafayette's cap, which is the same as that worn by Kesselring, I'd be surprised if Kesselring weren't wearing a private purchase cap so doesn't it stand to reason that this is what the Luftwaffe Mountain cap is. As I'm not a Luftwaffe collector and have no real experience with this field, I'll leave that to the guys who have a passion for it.

"One of the problems we encounter with all collectors is that their opinions are based on only what they have seen themselves. With over 1,000,000 M40's being made in Germany during the War, even the most advanced collectors have seen only a small fraction of 1% of them...."
Interesting comment although I do believe that your "guesstimate" of over 1,000,000 M40's is just that, a guess. We will never know how many were made but you can be assured that there a many very experienced collectors who have seen many caps but have never seen what they consider to be an original Tropical M40. Quite a few have seen extremely good reproductions that appeared possibly in the 80's.

Cheers,

Mark

[BenVK]

I'm assuming this is the Kesselring cap.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Mark

Good observations,
Agree that Kesselring's cap most likely was a private purchase. Which does raise the issue on Dick's Cap for sure. And as very few have had a "hands on" to the few 4 line stamped M40's agree these should be doubted till more photographic evidence is seen...
Its interesting to note that those collectors that have not had a "hands on" don't like them and the guys that have do. Did not mean You specifically, sorry about that (did not come out right).

Yes the 1,000,000 is a guess based on how many troops wore the M40 through out the tr. The Surrender in Tunisia had over 100,000. The caps were worn by many units in the Sud Front. If we consider that the caps had to be replaced with use... so the number could be higher than that.

How many M40's have been seen by the most experienced collectors ? 1,000 would be a high figure. again just a guess ?

Supposedly there were a few Brandt M40's in the "Beehive" cache, but will save that for another thread as i too am doubtful about that.

& Ben thanks for showing the Kesselring cap

cheers

[Mark Gibson]

Supposedly there were a few Brandt M40's in the "Beehive" cache, but will save that for another thread as i too am doubtful about that.

Tim, don't even go there because that's a load of garbage being fed by the producers of these fakes to convince collectors that they are original.

Mark

[NZMark]

AGREED. Mark

[Tim O'Keefe]

Tim, don't even go there because that's a load of garbage being fed by the producers of these fakes to convince collectors that they are original.

Mark

Hi Mark(s),

Agree on those Brandts. I did not imply there was any chance they are good...

Also wish to add, i am not as knowledgeable as either of You when it comes to the construction of the M40. My area is the TO & E & tactics of the DAK, not cloth items. So would always listen to you guys before i ventured to purchase any reputed DAK items

However i do question some of the declarations made by collectors of the DAK till proven, such as the CW M40 does not exist (looks quite likely it does, just need some more pics of this one). Or the Bullion Afrika CT is original (which it appears not). And again to be clear neither of you have made either of these declarations.

For now will just add that just because someone has never seen one does not mean it does not exist...How many M40's have been seen by the most experienced collectors ? 1,000 would be a high figure. Again just a guess ?



Heia Safari
Tim

[Mark Gibson]

However i do question some of the declarations made by collectors of the DAK till proven, such as the CW M40 does not exist

Tim,

I can speak for one of the collectors who you may be referring to who believes that Clemens Wagner did not make tropical billed caps in 1940. These caps appeared in the 1990's and, although high quality reproductions, have many incorrect features. The Panzer soutached cap discussed last year is a prime example.

Mark

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Mark

Agree that the 4 line stamped CW cap has not been proven to be original. Not sure when the theory that CW did not make the M40 started ? I have heard that from a few collectors over the years. But doubt that is correct.

This cap being discussed with the oval stamp has real potential to being an original (no one has said they don't like it from the one photo so far). Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion Until we can see the interior of this one we can not be sure either....

with kind regards
Tim

[Mark Gibson]

Hi Mark

Agree that the 4 line stamped CW cap has not been proven to be original. Not sure when the theory that CW did not make the M40 started ? I have heard that from a few collectors over the years. But doubt that is correct.

Tim,
Collectors who saw these appear on the market in the 1990's in "worn" condition studied them and quickly determined that they were well made fakes.
I have handled one myself, a panzer officer which belonged to a collector in Australia. I thought that it looked incredible even after being told that it was a very well made reproduction. This was in the late 1990's. I didn't know very much about caps at all then and only started to study them as much as I do after buying a few fakes.

I'll try to contact the owner of the panzer officer to see if he still has it.

Mark

P.S. I am talking about the 4 line 1940 dated CW

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hello Everyone,

Time to bring this up again with a little more new info. Found a photo on the Any DAK Items thread. It is of a Clemens Wagner tropical sidecap belonging to our member Raymond with the stamp with an oval that only lists Braunschweig on the lower line inside the oval....proves at least this stamp was used on the tropical sidecap as well as the Continental version. Different stamps, same maker.

Post # 762 - #764 Dated October '42

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...213638&page=51

Here is member Galizien41's Continental sidecap dated either '38 or '39. Post #2

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=braunschweig

All comments welcome as always.

Have asked for more photos of the cap that started this thread, still waiting for a reply....

[Tim O'Keefe]

Just an update or more of a post mortem. After asking Ralph to post an interior look to his CW M40 that started this thread, he has decided it just is not worth it. Too many good DAK caps are being labled as fake by those that own just a few if any at all.... "These guys are destroying the collecting field. A lot of collectors get turned off and new ones get the impression that everything they see is a fake and therefore they are afraid to buy anything and turn away from collecting".

So those of you that wish to doubt the existance of the CW M40 may continue to do so.
I for one know the truth that they do in fact exist and always have...

Heia Safari !

[Richard P]

Tim,

It's a wonder that anyone still posts anything. Many have stopped including myself, it is not worth it to argue for pages when someone can come on and pronounce your item fake after seeing only the markings, when there are hundreds of other uniforms with similar markings. He gets backed up by moderators and experts, and yet he makes a huge mistake in another thread, but its all O.K. because they are not on the receiving end.

Ralph is the only one with any sense.

Hell of a Safari !

[NZMark]

Hi team, Posting this for Tim......

Greetings All,

Would like to add the next chapter in the elusive hunt for the Clemens Wagner M40. First some background. We pretty much agree that Ralph's cap first posted in this thread is a good one or at least from his one photo earlier, looks to be an original. His cap has the owners name in it and the "standard" oval stamp that everyone agrees is the excepted version from CW for the sidecaps.

The CW tropenhelms which are original beyond any doubt, have the different four line stamp which is not excepted by some on the few M40'a that have been seen in the last 15 years or so. These sunhelmets were made in the smaller CW factory about 90 miles from the main CW factory where the sidecaps originated.

"The Collector's Guide to Cloth Third Reich Military Headgear by Gary Wilkins has a lot of information on Clemens Wagner including several ads of theirs which detail the fact that Hamburg was their "branch factory" and Braunschweig was their main factory. "Betriebsleitung nur Braunschweig" in that four line stamp means "Administration only at Braunschweig." So there were two factorys, one in Hamburg, and the larger one in Braunschweig.
It has been assumed by some that CW did not make any M40's during the War ?

These CW M40's with the four line stamp were labled as very well made fakes made in the late 80's or early 90's. By some DAK collectors mainly because no one had seen one previously in their years of collecting. And that they were not common in the Vet bring back circle. But that was before the internet.

Another member has been kind enough to send Mark and i some pics of his CW M40. This cap has only been owned by three very knowledgeable collectors since the mid '70's. Am sure that the fakers were not making caps of this high quality that far back....

This cap has the four line stamp not excepted by some. But has many attributes of an original M40 including the gromments. Also it matches in every detail to several of the CW M40's seen earlier through the years. Including the ink stamp, it is identical to the one in a Schutzen Officer's cap, same size, same CW stamp and same date. It shows similar age. The cockade appears to be an early one like the one on the Officers CW cap and that adds weight to the fact that their branch factory in Hamburg was using insignia from a different source than their main factory in Braunschweig 90 miles away. The placement of the grommets is the same and the two lines sewing the fabric to the brim liner are the same. The beautiful gold/recon soutache application is also the same.

I submit that these CW caps with the four line stamp are good afterall and that it is time to correct this mistake. CW was a prolific cap maker for the tr with tropical sidecaps, tropenhelms and numerous visors. It does not make any sense that CW did not produce the M40 as well ?

Let the pictures speak for themselves....time to turn it over to Mark, with appreciation to the owner and Mark for his help posting the photos.

Would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this cap ?

Heia Safari
Tim

[NZMark]

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