Some help with a Luft Trop cap please

[JasonA]

By the way Ben, hopefully you feel good about your decision. There have been items I've purchased and then returned during the inspection period for the same, uneasy feelings. Usually after I had returned the item, I felt better about it.

In my experience, the items I have been certain about immediately were the items I still haven't upgraded.

J-

[BenVK]

By the way Ben, hopefully you feel good about your decision.

Not really, it's just another purchase and another gamble.

The disappointing thing for me actualy though is that although I think I've put the time and effort in trying to help people in the same situation, when I ask for help myself, some people jump on it and see it as a sign of weakness or something ridiculous like that.

A lot of my friends have been suspended or expelled from this forum lately. I'm not questioning the reason why so I'm pretty sure I'm not breaking any forum rules ? Actualy, I'm never sure lately what is breaking the rules or not.

I will say this though, I have felt insulted my some comments on this thread but have chosen not to react to them. I have also felt a lot of interest from people wanting to discuss this topic further but fear doing so. That can't be right can it? We are only disussing a cloth cap for God's sake after all. But there you go, it will be the last time I ask this cloth headgear forum about anything.

God bless.
Ben

[Gene]

You can always PM me with any queries Ben

[JasonA]

Not really, it's just another purchase and another gamble.

The disappointing thing for me actualy though is that although I think I've put the time and effort in trying to help people in the same situation, when I ask for help myself, some people jump on it and see it as a sign of weakness or something ridiculous like that.

A lot of my friends have been suspended or expelled from this forum lately. I'm not questioning the reason why so I'm pretty sure I'm not breaking any forum rules ? Actualy, I'm never sure lately what is breaking the rules or not.

I will say this though, I have felt insulted my some comments on this thread but have chosen not to react to them. I have also felt a lot of interest from people wanting to discuss this topic further but fear doing so. That can't be right can it? We are only disussing a cloth cap for God's sake after all. But there you go, it will be the last time I ask this cloth headgear forum about anything.

God bless.
Ben

Eeek! I hope it was not something I said!

I don't think asking for assistance is a sign of weakness at all. How else do you expect to learn? Nobody knows everything. Anybody that thinks they do is providing a disservice. I would keep asking if you feel there are questions to be asked. If others are tired of discussing a topic, I think it will resolve itself on its own accord.

That said, I understand how it can feel like pulling teeth to get the reasons why somebody feels the way they do. While it's helpful to know if consensus deems an item genuine or not, our learning will increase exponentially if we see examples of why or why not. Some members here are very good about explaining that extra step...others, not so much.

If you're getting antagonistic or exacerbated vibes from anybody, I would just ignore their comments (as long as you're being polite). The goal of forums like this is to share the wealth. Inevitably, there are always a few people who tend to make life miserable for others. The additional problem is that without any nonverbal cues to rely on, we are left to our own devices to read into things.

Years ago, one of my friends suggested that I read the same e-mail from a co-worker two times: once as if they were angry when they wrote it (how I had originally interpreted it); and again, as if they were happy. It made a marked difference. Sometimes the only thing we have control over is how we react. That wasn't meant to sound didactic by any means...just something that has helped me process the junk that arises from time to time!

[Tim O'Keefe]

I feel you Ben. There are a few here on the Forum that can not admit they have been wrong before. Though its obvious to all that are following closely.
Also a follow the leader mentality exists that is rather sheepish. But not sure who the real leaders are ? Perhaps You are really one of the leaders, not those that perceive themselves to be....

Hope You continue to contribute to the Cloth Headgear Forum in the future We all learn from each other not just from a few.

cheers !
Tim

[John Hodgin]

Ben, regret you feel this way, could you clarify your comments please?

Ralph likes the cap, I do not, and thought I was clear about why. A difference of opinion, what more could be said? As I state in my book, Luftwaffe M41s are tough to authenticate because there is no construction standard for them as there is for Heer M40s. In fact, the largest "standard" among 41s are the examples produced for the Luftwaffe by the Italians. Except for some very minor sewing details, these are all identical.

Without extensive experience, these are a gamble indeed.
John

[BenVK]

Ben, regret you feel this way, could you clarify your comments please?

Sure John, no problem.

I think I know enough about headgear collecting as to not "bother" the forum with questions about obvious fakes or on subjects that have been discussed to death already.

I thought long and hard and spent hours and hours of research into the subject of Tropical Luftwaffe caps before I even started this thread.

That's why it's so disappointing to recieve comments like "thinking of buying or should we decide". I'm not asking for anyone to decide for me. I'm quite capable of making up my own mind but sometimes a bit of courteous help would be appreciated, especially on non clear cut cases like this cap. For the most part, that's exactly what most people are willing to give, courteous help, and I thank them for it.

I meant what I said about no longer posting any caps for opinions from now on though. It's just not a pleasurable experience for me any more and I think that's true for a lot of other people.

[90th Light]

Not really, it's just another purchase and another gamble.

The disappointing thing for me actualy though is that although I think I've put the time and effort in trying to help people in the same situation, when I ask for help myself, some people jump on it and see it as a sign of weakness or something ridiculous like that.

A lot of my friends have been suspended or expelled from this forum lately. I'm not questioning the reason why so I'm pretty sure I'm not breaking any forum rules ? Actualy, I'm never sure lately what is breaking the rules or not.

I will say this though, I have felt insulted my some comments on this thread but have chosen not to react to them. I have also felt a lot of interest from people wanting to discuss this topic further but fear doing so. That can't be right can it? We are only disussing a cloth cap for God's sake after all. But there you go, it will be the last time I ask this cloth headgear forum about anything.

God bless.
Ben

While I have not entered this debate due to the fact that I have a lot on at the moment, I do feel some real concern regarding what Ben has posted here.

Put simply I do not like seeing a member who has contributed so much to this forum feeling this way.

Have only just caught up with the fact that Scott Pritchett is no longer posting after the Carl Halfar M43 fiasco and god that is a loss is it not esp. when you look at the books he has just published.

How many can we afford to lose, young, old, experienced or inexperienced before it starts to take its toll in more than one way ???

Hope you hang in there Ben because to be honest it just would not be the same without you mate,

Chris

[Willi Z.]

That's why it's so disappointing to recieve comments like "thinking of buying or should we decide". I'm not asking for anyone to decide for me. I'm quite capable of making up my own mind but sometimes a bit of courteous help would be appreciated, especially on non clear cut cases like this cap. For the most part, that's exactly what most people are willing to give, courteous help, and I thank them for it.

I won't share what I am disappointed by.

Trying to get you to focus on the eagle, while being curious about what your thoughts are (since you initiated the thread and many have been trying to help), is not insulting. Nor does anyone intend it to be.

A number of people have weighed in and provided their opinions. People have been helping. Some are more informed on the subject than others. That is life. It ain't fair. Some dedicated far more time, energy, focus, effort going to shows, $$, than others. And by studying known originals in collections consisting primarily of known originals.

For me to hear about "well this hat might be a gamble", or I have a "50/50 opinion" on it, or I will consider it because others have to convince me, is not collecting logic I can relate to. Sorry. To each his own. Collect and let collect. It is not an insult. Show others the same courtesy and respect you wish to be shown.

Where there is smoke there is fire. Collecting today, IMO, requires an "effective logic curcuit-driven risk management" methodology. Usually when something is wrong on an item such as this cap, there are numerous things wrong. You don't have a few correct things mixed with a few wrong things (unless of course pieces have been modified with authentic insiniga, etc; unlike this cap). The same applies on items who features are clearly authentic. It starts, as I stated early on, with the eagle, markings, grommets, and aging. Those are obvious measureable indicators. I watch new young people come in and build fabulous collections. I see some who view the hobby as fuzzy and gray for decades build "what if" collections.

Yes, some very highly skilled people have left, and continue to leave, the forums. It is because of the frustration of dealing with this "every opinion is equal" egalitarian crap. The endless blather and drivel on some items. The first thing my father taught me about collecting back in the early '70s was "know what you don't know" and to know who to listen to. The hobby becomes very clear after that.

BTW, there are a number of highly experienced advanced collectors on this fourm who hardly (some never) post. They could add tremendously to these discussions. They don't get involved for the reasons I stated above.

[John Hodgin]

The first thing my father taught me about collecting back in the early '70s was "know what you don't know" and to know who to listen to. The hobby becomes very clear after that.

Your father is a very wise man Willi!

Ben, if that M41 did not "immediately speak" to you, it is best that you did return it. When you hold an authentic 41, you know it's good and do not have to deliberate over it's details. Just as with your M40 with the added Luftwaffe eagle. There is ZERO doubt that eagle was wartime applied and NEVER would you think otherwise. You know this without having to discuss the cap here, and that is the way it should be with an original 41.

Like Willi, the "what if, and maybe" discussions are not for me.
John

[John Hodgin]

Received emails and PMs about the cap on this thread and further discussion might be of benefit.

Why is the eagle is so abraded, is this natural wear?

Have seen many side caps, Meyers, and M41s with minor to significant wear, and in none of them are the eagles as abraded, or as evenly abraded, as the the eagle on the cap beginning this thread.

The cap illustrated on this page is an original, produced in Italy. Similar examples can be seen in Vol.1 and other variations of M41s will be illustrated and discussed in Vol.2.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...41+caps&page=3

John

[JasonA]

Yes, some very highly skilled people have left, and continue to leave, the forums. It is because of the frustration of dealing with this "every opinion is equal" egalitarian crap.

This is an oft-voiced complaint I hear outside the forums, about the forums. I think most rational people would agree that the opinions of advanced collectors with (up to) 40 years experience carry significant weight - exponentially more than those with little to no experience. The tricky thing is finding that balance. And even more importantly, knowing everybody's specialty.

From my perspective as a relatively new member, it's sometimes challenging finding those sources that we should listen to. Many people like to help, share their knowledge, and contribute. It's fairly easy to identify some of the most advanced guys based on their status as moderators, authors or that their personal collections are referenced in many of the tomes we purchase (yourself & John H. are two examples).

What of most of our peers? I don't know what everybody's specialty is. I don't know who's necessarily qualified to give me assistance on metal insignia, or cloth headgear, or field equipment, etc. To your point, some of the truly advanced collectors rarely post here.

Perhaps it would be helpful to have some sort of system or pinned thread in each forum to identify those established and/or knowledgeble collectors. "Experience level" might not be the right fit, but you get the idea. Nobody can enforce who should be listened to, but we can take steps to in some way identify credentials and let people take those factors into account when they make their final decisions.

Food for thought.

Best regards,

J-

[BenVK]

John, you're pm box is full.

[Gran Sasso]

Are you sure?

Numerous sources I've read have this guy identified as being Radl.

I have diff. sources:

[John Hodgin]

John, you're pm box is full.

Thanks Ben, not any more.