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**Willi Z.** · 11-11-2010, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by NZMark View Post

By dismissing Chris' veteran sourced items you are basically calling him a liar.

Pragmatic collectors focus on the item and not the story. I have seen alot of bad items in the hands of veterans. We could go on and on with the "why" and "how" of those situations.

Challenging people based on what veterans they have dealt with is absurd. Mark, this is not directed at you.

I don't like the sleeve either, and that doesn't mean I am calling him a liar.

How do people feel about the cap which started this thread?

There is such an obvious pattern on these threads with the same people not liking the opinions of others and the endless blather. It is getting very old and tiresome....

**RobertE** · 11-11-2010, 06:01 PM

[quote=Willi Zahn;4317303]Pragmatic collectors focus on the item and not the story.

And how would we assess the originality of an item, as direct vet providence is dismissed with the "buy the item, not the story" maneuver?

We accept one-word judgements (no discussion, just lofty comments) as fact? That's supposed to be pragmatic?

Chris has posted over 40 discussion points - photos, opinions based on research, and vet accounts. From the opposing camp, almost nothing of substance has been posted. Why? Is discussion on a discussion forum considered "blather" by everyone, or just some? Because if this is what we're supposed to accept as advancing our hobby, I'm wasting my membership.

regards, Robert

**Willi Z.** · 11-11-2010, 06:10 PM

Robert, I just saw a pile of insignia which came from a 82nd Airborne vet. In there was a bad set of Panzer tabs. He said he had cut them off a Panzer wrap. This pair of very bad fakes had never been sewn on a wrap.

I also agree with some of what you just said.

I do see part of the problem on these threads as being the whole "opposing camp" matter. That, IMO, is not advancing the hobby. There have been quote a few of these threads with the same outcome. Some just can't declare something to be bad. Some declare something to be fake with a few words. Both situations are not ideal. But, they always turn personal.

**phild** · 11-11-2010, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by RobertE View Post

[
And how would we assess the originality of an item, as direct vet providence is dismissed with the "buy the item, not the story" maneuver?

We accept one-word judgements (no discussion, just lofty comments) as fact? That's supposed to be pragmatic?

Chris has posted over 40 discussion points - photos, opinions based on research, and vet accounts. From the opposing camp, almost nothing of substance has been posted. Why? Is discussion on a discussion forum "blather" by everyone, or just some.

regards, Robert

I agree with the above points fully.

I would be very interested in knowing what characteristic(s) of that sleeve prevent it from being off of a period tunic. I admit fully that I am not that well versed in all of the variations of repro-renacter tunics and if they are being made now with cloth that has this distinct mid to late war period weave I need to get experience with them quickly. The hbt cuff lining I have no idea about, but I would belive that there were dozens if not hundreds of slight pattern types coming from as many weaving mills across Europe pre-may 45.

I would sincerely like to know what aspect of the sleeve indicates that it is not pre-45?
I think that determining the originality of the sleeve has a bearing on the M-43 caps posted because Chris has put forth his provonance on most every item that he has posted. I personally don't feel that he has in any way lied or mis-represeneted his experiences in aquiring these items. They are either real pre-45 or there is a master faker at work produceing one off items and slipping in to Vet's families......or something..

**RobertE** · 11-11-2010, 06:24 PM

Willi, thanks for the direct answer. I know that vet groupings can be contaminated with bad items; it happens. More so now than in the past.

I had hundreds if not thousands of direct vet acquisitions - it is how I built my collection in the 1970's. I bought by the footlocker - many of us did. In doing so, you get a feel for tampered-with collections. Those who collected from veteran's during this period know what I'm talking about.

To have this enormous source of authentication summarily dismissed by the glib statement "buy the item..." is new-wave crap. Remember, most of what is considered good by the old guard is deemed good because they saw it pop out of the seabag, and have since compared all else by what they know to be good. What other criteria did we have, besides accepted German workmanship? Even that was/is wildly varied.

Yes, fakes can work into good groupings. Yes, we need to be aware of that possibility.

HBT-lined black SS panzer caps are completely plausible, IMO.

regards, Robert

**90th Light** · 11-11-2010, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by Willi Zahn View Post

Pragmatic collectors focus on the item and not the story. I have seen alot of bad items in the hands of veterans. We could go on and on with the "why" and "how" of those situations.

Challenging people based on what veterans they have dealt with is absurd. Mark, this is not directed at you.

I don't like the sleeve either, and that doesn't mean I am calling him a liar.

How do people feel about the cap which started this thread?

There is such an obvious pattern on these threads with the same people not liking the opinions of others and the endless blather. It is getting very old and tiresome....

Willy,

my point is that original items were brought back by American returned servicemen in 1945 and many American collectors have come to know and trust those over the years as the real deal beyond doubt.

but there were certain fronts and certain German units which the Americans did not see a lot of action on or take a lot of prisoners from and as such not so many items from those fronts/ German units have ever made their way to America and are not well known by US collectors today if at all.

The German units fighting up in the north of Italy in 1945 is such an example and it would appear that they made greater use of HBT linings in their caps and tunics than has been previously realised.

This is a fact and if we also bring in to this equation what was used on the Eastern front then the spectrum gets even wider,

Chris

**Willi Z.** · 11-11-2010, 06:31 PM

Robert, I understand your point about my statement. I still think it is realistic and practical to focus on the item and not the story when dealing with something which appears outside of the norm.

I have only handled a couple of the Feldgrau Italian-made M43 caps. I have no idea if they had black ones as well. If I saw one I would expect it to have features consistent with the ones on the Feldgrau example.

**Willi Z.** · 11-11-2010, 06:34 PM

Chris, there were plenty of US units in Northern Italy in 1945. I have received FJ items from 10th Mountain Div, and 88th ID vets.

The way I see it; the guy started this thread because he is worried about his cap. I read short comments on the 1st few pages from people who I know know their caps because I have met many of these collectors and have seen some of what they own (for me the best judge of a person's abilities...deeds not words), and I think they are trying to help the guy. I do understand that many would like to see detailed and supported appraisals. Because others don't like those "hasty" appraisals doesn't make them wrong.

I just hate to see these threads get so snippy, rude, and personal.....with no happy ending.

Some get involved just to grind their axe a little.

**Willi Z.** · 11-11-2010, 08:32 PM

Another SS M43 Panzer cap. To me an obvious fake. Others as well. Please note the discussion........

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=472102

**besslein** · 11-11-2010, 08:41 PM

i realy love this one since i have found it from soldier family

Attached Files

S5004622.JPG (119.7 KB, 651 views)

**B. N. Singer** · 11-11-2010, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by Willi Zahn View Post

Another SS M43 Panzer cap. To me an obvious fake. Others as well. Please note the discussion........

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=472102

And any surprise at who thinks it might stand a chance of being original; “if that chick don’t want to know, let her” (The Boys Are Back In Town - Thin Lizzy)
B. N. Singer

**90th Light** · 11-11-2010, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by B. N. Singer View Post

And any surprise at who thinks it might stand a chance of being original; “if that chick don’t want to know, let her” (The Boys Are Back In Town - Thin Lizzy)
B. N. Singer

Come on please Mr Singer, if your going to bait me could we please have something at least up to your usual standard.

This only produces some sort of sad vision of you doing your daily work out to the music of "Thin Lizzy".

The battle against age and toll of time I suppose and thus we start returning to the ways of our youth,

Chris

**mikel** · 11-12-2010, 01:07 AM

not quite

“if that chick don’t want to know, let her”

I could entertain a doubt..

“if that chick don’t want to know, forget her”

**Richard P** · 11-12-2010, 05:45 AM

I do see how Chris's cuff could be summarily dismissed as a reenactor sleeve cut off. The cuff detail stitching is the boxy rectangular style, most commonly found on fake uniforms, especially Janke products. I know when I see cuff sewing of that style it immediately puts me off.

I prefer the styles most commonly seen where the top of the cuff opening stitching is more narrow than the bottom. Some have very radical angles, and some angles are barely discernible...but most are somewhat narrower than the boxy style shown in Chris's photo and described above.

What has to be kept in mind is that the boxy style was used on original WWII German military uniforms. While it may not be near as common, it was in fact used, and that has been discussed before on this forum.

On the actual cutoff cuff there is an original Prinz Eugen cuff title, with some damage. Also an original private's stripe. Both appear consistently sewn with original methods. Where the sleeve eagle was clearly exhibits something was there in the same shape as an SS eagle that preserved the nap. This does not look like a sleeve where all the nap is gone from sun or bugs. Various parts exhibit wear, scuffing, and have nap remaining in scattered places, which is consistent with actual field wear. I may not have seen that type of HBT pattern lining, bu that does not mean it did not exist.

Most of us do not know Chris, and he is just a lot of typed words, and a few photos. Many, especially moderators with differing opinions, get rather annoyed at his willingness to be rather verbose getting his point across. I do understand their criticism, as I tend to write too much, but I must say, I do not see any evidence in those lengthy tomes, however annoying, to dismiss him as someone who would make up a vet story about a cut off sleeve, especially considering this was Veteran's Day.

Richard

Photo 1. Chris's sleeve cut off.

Photo 2. Sleeve sewing of the type I prefer to see.

Attached Files

**90th Light** · 11-12-2010, 05:49 AM

[QUOTE=Willi Zahn;4317375]Chris, there were plenty of US units in Northern Italy in 1945. I have received FJ items from 10th Mountain Div, and 88th ID vets.

Willi,

the Americans (5th) came up the coast of the "Tyrrhenian Sea" / "Ligurian Sea" side of Italy and the center of Italy . They then went left in a north west direction and took Milian near Switzerland plus everything in-between. Then proceded into Austria on the Swiss side.

The British (8th) which the 2nd NZEF was part of came up the "Adriatic Sea" side of Italy and the went right in a north east direction right across to Trieste and up into Udine & Gorizia near Yugoslavia. They procede into Austria on the Yugoslav side.

Where the Americans are and the British are in Italy by May 1945 is a long way a part and quite different parts of the north of the country.

Also the Americans have engaged the 16th SS Division and to a lesser extent in the brief period that they are there 1 SS Division along the way which is are SS divisions raised and equiped in Germany then sent to Italy.

The New Zealanders encounter 24th SS, 29th SS and some of the 7th SS in the extreme north. These are SS divisions raised and equiped in Italy, Croatia and other parts of the Balkans,

The SS units the Americans are facing at that time are quite different from those the New Zealanders are up against and they are in entirely different parts of the country hence the difference in where the uniforms and caps etc are being manufactored and logistically supplied from,

Chris

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