POLICE GENERALS OVERSEAS-opinions please

[billbert]

If SOME was a flatwire gold eagle to post ..It would be one of the RAREST insignia encountered IMO Billbert

[DKNYC71]

If SOME was a flatwire gold eagle to post ..It would be one of the RAREST insignia encountered IMO Billbert

I agree, I do not think I have ever encountered a police gold flatwire bird on a black background. And water police would certainly have a blue background.

[Spagg199th]

IMO, I believe your cap is 100% correct from other photos I've seen.

Sal

[HISTORY MAN]

I agree with Sal. I trust him a lot !

[JoeW]

Photos of any general wearing an overseas cap are scarce to me. This photo is of Gen. Mulverstedt of the SS-Pol Div shortly before his death in combat. He is also pictured wearing his visor cap in the field.

According to a color uniform chart I have, portions of which I showed in the six/three eagle feather thread, the insignia for the generals' Hausmutzen is goldgelbem metallgespinst. The water police cap eagle was of gold Kunstseide.

I agree that a general's overseas cap eagle would have to be the rarest piece of insignia. Very few were made or worn I surmise. I would pass on this cap.

[DKNYC71]

Photos of any general wearing an overseas cap are scarce to me. This photo is of Gen. Mulverstedt of the SS-Pol Div shortly before his death in combat. He is also pictured wearing his visor cap in the field.

According to a color uniform chart I have, portions of which I showed in the six/three eagle feather thread, the insignia for the generals' Hausmutzen is goldgelbem metallgespinst. The water police cap eagle was of gold Kunstseide.

I agree that a general's overseas cap eagle would have to be the rarest piece of insignia. Very few were made or worn I surmise. I would pass on this cap.

Joe, certainly you have been collecting for a long time and studying Police organizations and regalia. But my main question is, on what basis do you clasify this cap as not being good? Because the flatwire eagle is silver as opposed to gold? The image you have provided depicts an Army style cap being worn, not even a police style cap. Also, since there are not many photos in circulation depicting generals of police wearing overseas caps, does not mean that there were none (every branc of the TR services has an overseas cap in there overall uniform regulations). Also, just a thought, this could have been worn by a number of generals in the overall police organization, not just filed division. Another analogical example may be one pertaining to SS officers overseas caps. If an SS officers overseas cap has an EM bevo skull and eagle instead of silver flatwire, does it mean that it is not a real SS officers overseas cap? I had one out of the woodwork with that arangement which was unquestionable. This cap is absoluetly original in material, construction, insignia (including piping) to the pre-1945 TR period, nor does it display any signs of tampering of any kind. The lining is correct and shows moderate wear. So in conclusion, what makes you state the cap is not a real general officers rank of a police irganization? The fact that not many of these are around, if any aside from this cap, should not immediatly write this one of as being bad? Also in a case where there are not other examples for comparissons, should the approach not be scientific: material, construction, any sign of tampering, etc.... I am not closed for the option of this cap being bad, eventhough it looks good to me, I would like to know what makes it bad to an experienced collector like yourself, this way, myself and other forum memebrs can learn something. Thank you very much in advance!

Dave.

[besslein]

fantastic cap i realy like it in every way

[JoeW]

Dave, I must admit that I have always tried to collect by the book, within the box, as a bean-counter, as the German dealers often derisively term it.

You wrote that the cap worn by Gen. Mulverstedt in the above period photo from his time as commander of the SS-Polizei Division is an example of an Army style of cap being worn and not even police style. Well, the newer Angolia-Taylor book on the German police identifies police officer overseas caps as made in the same design as Army overseas caps, albeit by only offering the photo of existing example. But I think that their claim can further be substantiated by this period photo of Gen Daluege inspecting a water supply accompanied by another police officer and both are wearing the Heer cut overseas cap. This photo is from the period book Ordnungspolizei auf den Rollbahnen des Osten. So this source reference appears to substantiate the Taylor-Angolia assertion. But I must say that there is another photo giving evidence that standard police style overseas caps were worn by non-general officers in the book.

Overseas caps were not standard issue to every policeman, whether non-com or officer. They were designated by regulation for issue to members of the barracked/militarized units of the Schupo and mot. Gendarmerie. Your common beat policeman would have no need for one. You see photos of them in albums of training or combat units. They were not issued to every general as not all were involved in combat units.

I stated that I thought a general's overseas cap eagle (and the cap on which it would be found) would be one of the rarest pieces of police insignia. I stated that the clothing chart I have indicates the general's overseas cap eagle is made of golden yellow metal thread. Your cap has the bullion piping but does not have the specified insignia. I therefore would decline to add it to my collection. I would certainly not refuse the opportunity to examine it. But this is my opinion.

[DKNYC71]

Dave, I must admit that I have always tried to collect by the book, within the box, as a bean-counter, as the German dealers often derisively term it.

You wrote that the cap worn by Gen. Mulverstedt in the above period photo from his time as commander of the SS-Polizei Division is an example of an Army style of cap being worn and not even police style. Well, the newer Angolia-Taylor book on the German police identifies police officer overseas caps as made in the same design as Army overseas caps, albeit by only offering the photo of existing example. But I think that their claim can further be substantiated by this period photo of Gen Daluege inspecting a water supply accompanied by another police officer and both are wearing the Heer cut overseas cap. This photo is from the period book Ordnungspolizei auf den Rollbahnen des Osten. So this source reference appears to substantiate the Taylor-Angolia assertion. But I must say that there is another photo giving evidence that standard police style overseas caps were worn by non-general officers in the book.

Overseas caps were not standard issue to every policeman, whether non-com or officer. They were designated by regulation for issue to members of the barracked/militarized units of the Schupo and mot. Gendarmerie. Your common beat policeman would have no need for one. You see photos of them in albums of training or combat units. They were not issued to every general as not all were involved in combat units.

I stated that I thought a general's overseas cap eagle (and the cap on which it would be found) would be one of the rarest pieces of police insignia. I stated that the clothing chart I have indicates the general's overseas cap eagle is made of golden yellow metal thread. Your cap has the bullion piping but does not have the specified insignia. I therefore would decline to add it to my collection. I would certainly not refuse the opportunity to examine it. But this is my opinion.

Joe, as always you make very good points. However, in regard to army style caps being worn, this is an instance which was widely practiced also in the SS. In fact it is very common to observer period photos of SS officers wearing both regular and panzer black army overseas caps with SS insignia. One can guess as to why this occurred, many suggest it was due to the lack of SS cut caps at the time and place where they acquired or desired to acquire them, some further suggest that it was there desire to identify more with a combat role (linked more to the regular armed forces) rather than a political para-military role (linked with the SS) but today, who really knows, all we can do is guess. The fact though remains that SS officers wore army overseas caps, same as many police officers wore army style police caps while the regulation stipulated a police style overseas cap similar in style/design/cut to that of the SS, Navy, and Luftwaffe.

Another interesting factor to take into account, this is line to "adhering to regulation", is that many SS officers wore army shoulder boards without the black underlay as per SS regulations. I have handled a couple of untouched SS officer tunics with army officer boards which were tailored that way by a professional tailor as opposed to a field modification. Furthermore, I have observed many period photos off SS officers wearing army boards, and what is more interesting, are the numerous photos of SS officers wearing army bullion breast eagles on their arms in lieu of an SS officers sleeve eagles. If you have Mark Yerger's early work on Otto Weidinger, you will observe many studio photos of him wearing tailor made uniforms with army boards, and there is at least one where he is wearing an army breast eagle on his sleeve. Now, if you ran into one of these type of tunics would you dismiss them as being bad because they do not adhere to strict regulations by the book?

And on the subject of regulations, I have seen copies of several SS regulations depicting collar tabs which were never worn, and some never even produced, yet there they are in regulations. How many gold wire police eagles on a black backing have ever been observed out there? I am certain, especially if you state so, that indeed they exist as per regulations, but how do we know if they existed at all, or if they did, that they were readily available in every corner in Germany where a general had a hat or uniform tailored. I have seen an SS officers uniform where a tailor professionally piped an EM runic tab with silver piping to make it an "officer", this uniform is in a friend's collection and came out of a footlocker.

Again, in absence of numerous examples to compare to, it is logical that one resorts to a scientific approach in analyzing the material used, insignia, tailoring, signs of tampering, etc... To write this off just because a regulation chart presents a "gold wire adler", while none are known to exist on a black backing, and the adler on this unquestionably period cap is silver wire, is not conducting proper due diligence and jumping to a hasty decision which is solely based on a "regulations chart" , and we all know know the true wartime value of "textbook regulation".

[JoeW]

Dave, I wasn't trying to convince you not to buy it or to return it. You posted it and asked for educated opinions. I have tried to do that. Bill gave you his and he certainly has as much experience and knowledge as any police collector to provide you with an educated opinion.

Perhaps I would view the police generals as different in their approach than Waffen SS or Heer generals. I just don't see that they were that venturesome in their dress. I can't imagine the elan of the Waffen SS permeating to these generals. Daluge wore his SS sleeve eagle on his police tunic. And Wunnenberg wore a Heer eagle on his. But I believe those were exceptions.

There were far fewer and as I opined, there would certainly be far fewer overseas cap eagles. They are perhaps rarer than any other piece of general's insignia. The regulation introduced a Hausmutze n. Art to replace the old style crusher. This new cap was to be Schiffchen shape. Colors of piping and eagles were given. That's all. And officers and generals procured their own clothing, so I believe that is why you find both styles of overseas caps made for officers and generals. But I haven't noticed any with cocardes in the photos I have found. And I did find a couple more examples.

The first photo is of Obst. Muller-Brunkhorst in 1943 in Russia. He was CoS to the BdO in Kiev. He is wearing a tailor Heer design officer overseas cap. The other officer seems to be wearing the standard Schiffchen style. None have cocardes. Notice the M43 caps present.

The other photo from the same grouping in my collection shows Muller-Brunkforst with his back to the camera now wearing an M43, talking with GenMaj Herf and GenLt v. Bomhard. Herf seems to be wearing a Schiffchen style cap with a large eagle. Bomhard is wearing an M43. And Obst. Matros facing the camera with glasses is wearing a Schiffchen officer overseas cap. No pip. The photo is dated April 1943.

I really can't judge on the cap itself as I don't have it in hand. I am just writing that without the general's eagle, I wouldn't go for it. I would prefer to wait. And, the pip bothers me.

[DKNYC71]

Dave, I wasn't trying to convince you not to buy it or to return it. You posted it and asked for educated opinions. I have tried to do that. Bill gave you his and he certainly has as much experience and knowledge as any police collector to provide you with an educated opinion.

Perhaps I would view the police generals as different in their approach than Waffen SS or Heer generals. I just don't see that they were that venturesome in their dress. I can't imagine the elan of the Waffen SS permeating to these generals. Daluge wore his SS sleeve eagle on his police tunic. And Wunnenberg wore a Heer eagle on his. But I believe those were exceptions.

There were far fewer and as I opined, there would certainly be far fewer overseas cap eagles. They are perhaps rarer than any other piece of general's insignia. The regulation introduced a Hausmutze n. Art to replace the old style crusher. This new cap was to be Schiffchen shape. Colors of piping and eagles were given. That's all. And officers and generals procured their own clothing, so I believe that is why you find both styles of overseas caps made for officers and generals. But I haven't noticed any with cocardes in the photos I have found. And I did find a couple more examples.

The first photo is of Obst. Muller-Brunkhorst in 1943 in Russia. He was CoS to the BdO in Kiev. He is wearing a tailor Heer design officer overseas cap. The other officer seems to be wearing the standard Schiffchen style. None have cocardes. Notice the M43 caps present.

The other photo from the same grouping in my collection shows Muller-Brunkforst with his back to the camera now wearing an M43, talking with GenMaj Herf and GenLt v. Bomhard. Herf seems to be wearing a Schiffchen style cap with a large eagle. Bomhard is wearing an M43. And Obst. Matros facing the camera with glasses is wearing a Schiffchen officer overseas cap. No pip. The photo is dated April 1943.

I really can't judge on the cap itself as I don't have it in hand. I am just writing that without the general's eagle, I wouldn't go for it. I would prefer to wait. And, the pip bothers me.

Joe, thanks for your continued input, just because I beg to differ with it, does not mean I do not value it. You are certainly an authority worth respecting.

I have however observed a number of photos of police officers in the field divisions wearing the "boat" style overseas with both eagle and cockard, actually your photos are the first that I have observed depicting police field division officers that are not wearing the cockard or 'pip' as you call it.

Back to the flat wire bird, I believe that either it was never manufactured or if it was, in VERY LIMITED numbers, and certainly not available to most tailor shops in Germany at the time. I would think that even if this insignia was ever in existence at least one would be in a collection or an original specimen depicted in some sort of a reference, hence a copy/fake of it would ceratinly have surfaced, at least in the past 10-20 years. Everything in TR that is even remotely known is faked. I have inquired with several old time collectors and very advanced dealers, and not a single one of these individuals have ever seen or heard of a police generals gold flatwire adler (that is on a black backing and not the blue backed water protection), not even a repro fake. In fact one of the advanced collectors I have spoken to has been collecting for the past 45 years and has a collection of 500 various TR eagles, he has never seen or heard of the gold flatwire black backed police eagle.

And lastly, I think that as far as stating that "Perhaps I would view the police generals as different in their approach than Waffen SS or Heer generals. I just don't see that they were that venturesome in their dress." is taking a good deal of liberty in assuming this, but that is after all your 'opinion'. In my humble opinion, I think all military/para-military officers in wartime are for the most part the same, and given wartime conditions, limitations, and ideology all acted the same way. This can only be argued if someone personaly interviewed a police general and discussed this very subject with him, otherwise we are all playing guessing games and making a great deal of assumptions.

Thanks again for your educated input and the photos you have provided.

[juoneen]

It seems to me we need to see more examples of this same style generals hat of both army and police styles to get a "feel" for them.

I have noticed in the years of collecting that officers hats of higher ranks like this always seems to have a higher quality of hat with the small leather front sweat piece inside .

I also must say that although the bullion piping looks old, I cant believe any general would wear such a cockade sewn with not only the wrong colored thread for the black area, but to have that type of stitch or that it would be showing.I also feel the cockade would just get beat up, and be in the way,as it resides right on the edge of the fold .... not wearing well in that version if they wore that type in the field, possibly in dress, but wouldn't seem appropriate in the field. I can't buy the in field stitched story either, because even if they did such a crappy stitching job, the general would I'm sure have dropped off his hat at the tailors after he got to a town , and had it fixed professionally, as that would be embarrassing to wear looking like that. I would always assume a generals hat would be machine sewn, with no inside stitching made by the hat company when assembled , always reeking of quality workmanship.

This job was obviously done by a farb, with no tailoring skills whatsoever.(I could have done a better job myself) .

I suspect even in the field there must have been one tailor in every unit , or someone they would ask to do the job that would look more presentable before leaving it look so crappy in workmanship. Also some of the generals didn't show cocades in wear in these photo evidence.(even though many may have, that's why i think you sand baggers need to bust out those higher ranks hats you have stashed that are vet brought back, and help out on this thread to show more examples , especially the insides.

[DKNYC71]

It seems to me we need to see more examples of this same style generals hat of both army and police styles to get a "feel" for them.

I have noticed in the years of collecting that officers hats of higher ranks like this always seems to have a higher quality of hat with the small leather front sweat piece inside .

I also must say that although the bullion piping looks old, I cant believe any general would wear such a cockade sewn with not only the wrong colored thread for the black area, but to have that type of stitch or that it would be showing.I also feel the cockade would just get beat up, and be in the way,as it resides right on the edge of the fold .... not wearing well in that version if they wore that type in the field, possibly in dress, but wouldn't seem appropriate in the field. I can't buy the in field stitched story either, because even if they did such a crappy stitching job, the general would I'm sure have dropped off his hat at the tailors after he got to a town , and had it fixed professionally, as that would be embarrassing to wear looking like that. I would always assume a generals hat would be machine sewn, with no inside stitching made by the hat company when assembled , always reeking of quality workmanship.

This job was obviously done by a farb, with no tailoring skills whatsoever.(I could have done a better job myself) .

I suspect even in the field there must have been one tailor in every unit , or someone they would ask to do the job that would look more presentable before leaving it look so crappy in workmanship. Also some of the generals didn't show cocades in wear in these photo evidence.(even though many may have, that's why i think you sand baggers need to bust out those higher ranks hats you have stashed that are vet brought back, and help out on this thread to show more examples , especially the insides.

WOW! Interesting observation, you must bee seing something that I am not or not anyone that has seen this cap. This is a very well tailored cap in every respect. And the partial leather sweatband you elude to, I have seen just as many officers hats with it, as I have seen without it. And your comment " This job was obviously done by a farb, with no tailoring skills whatsoever.(I could have done a better job myself) ." You must be talking about a different hat. In any event, thanks for your valued input.

[101combatvet]

100% original in my opinion. If it isn't than what was it before the remake?

[all1knew]

I just stumbled across this cap and WOW!!

William Kramer