SS M 43 Panzer up for Disscusion

[realone]

ok Lenny,,,thanks for looking,,but whats your concerns,,you can PM me,,thanks Greg

[90th Light]

There are a lot of myths about M43 caps which have spread through certain circles of the German collecting community like a chinese whisper. Comes down to what one has collected and what one has seen.

A very good example is the pictures of the Belgium SS Mountain soldiers which is posted on a thread called "A Nice Wallonie Image" in the SS forum. A very advanced collector of many, many years standing who is well known to several of the advanced collectors of M43's got one of these SS M43 caps with grommets. Now at the time when he got it, he was told that it was a reproduction because it is a true M43 with long visor but because of the grommets it is bad. One very wise collector at the time however said sit on it because where he got it from it had to be right.

Well he emailed me the other day and said have a look at this thread ("A nice Wallonie Image") because those guys are wearing my SS M43 complete with the grommets. Thank god I did not panic and sell that for next to nothing as a reproduction.

There are also collectors who have picked up SS M43 with HBT linings which are not the Dachau model but have come from a good source at the time. The cap which started this thread has many of the chracteristics of such a cap.

Comes down to what one can live with and how much they are willing to pay. If it is forum approval one seeks then this is not the cap for you and you would be best to keep searching and saving the $7K for one beyond doubt (hopefully) but if it is history you are into and trying to understand the full spectrum of caps worn by the SS between 1943 to 1945 then this one has real potential but I would expect to pay a lot less than a crazy $7K for it,

Interesting and collectable in its own right, Chris

[Lenny W]

ok Lenny,,,thanks for looking,,but whats your concerns,,you can PM me,,thanks Greg

check your pm i sent one last night

[Glenn McInnes]

There are a lot of myths about M43 caps which have spread through certain circles of the German collecting community like a chinese whisper. Comes down to what one has collected and what one has seen.

A very good example is the pictures of the Belgium SS Mountain soldiers which is posted on a thread called "A Nice Wallonie Image" in the SS forum. A very advanced collector of many, many years standing who is well known to several of the advanced collectors of M43's got one of these SS M43 caps with grommets. Now at the time when he got it, he was told that it was a reproduction because it is a true M43 with long visor but because of the grommets it is bad. One very wise collector at the time however said sit on it because where he got it from it had to be right.

Well he emailed me the other day and said have a look at this thread ("A nice Wallonie Image") because those guys are wearing my SS M43 complete with the grommets. Thank god I did not panic and sell that for next to nothing as a reproduction.

There are also collectors who have picked up SS M43 with HBT linings which are not the Dachau model but have come from a good source at the time. The cap which started this thread has many of the characteristics of such a cap.

Comes down to what one can live with and how much they are willing to pay. If it is forum approval one seeks then this is not the cap for you and you would be best to keep searching and saving the $7K for one beyond doubt (hopefully) but if it is history you are into and trying to understand the full spectrum of caps worn by the SS between 1943 to 1945 then this one has real potential but I would expect to pay a lot less than a crazy $7K for it,

Interesting and collectable in its own right, Chris

Yes well,we all know how you collect... "All is innocent until proven guilty"... Very dangerous if you ask me.


There are certain characteristics of the hat that started this thread which came out in fake M43 hats produced in the 90's and I have seen several of them for sale since then. (of this same type)

Can I prove it,no I can't.. But in the same sentence I can't prove any original item that I own,is in fact original.



Glenn

[90th Light]

Yes well,we all know how you collect... "All is innocent until proven guilty"... Very dangerous if you ask me.


There are certain characteristics of the hat that started this thread which came out in fake M43 hats produced in the 90's and I have seen several of them for sale since then. (of this same type)

Can I prove it,no I can't.. But in the same sentence I can't prove any original item that I own,is in fact original.



Glenn

The challenge is that my friend with the SS M43 caps with grommets has items going back 50 years in his collection and I have them going back 35 years yet here we are time and time again being told here on WAF that you can not get an SS M43 with grommets or only the Dachau model of the SS M43 had an HBT lining.

May be they did make good copies of such caps in the 1990,s for sure but I certainly did not see reproductions to such a standard in the 1970's.

We need to be more open minded to the fact that there are in fact originals which fakers have copied and there are original materials which fakers have used but where does this leave the an original cap made before May 1945 which is just written off by a one liner with no consideration of impact.

The question is what is the real deal and what is not but there are some real deals which are not always as textbook as one would like.

Best regards, Chris

[Glenn McInnes]

The challenge is that my friend with the SS M43 caps with grommets has items going back 50 years in his collection and I have them going back 35 years yet here we are time and time again being told here on WAF that you can not get an SS M43 with grommets or only the Dachau model of the SS M43 had an HBT lining.



Best regards, Chris

Good,then lets see the 35 and 50 year hats if you would be so kind.



Glenn

[90th Light]

Then lets see the 35 and 50 year hats if you would be so kind.



Glenn

No problem and I am sure that you will have my friends book on your book shelf so some you have already studied as bench marks caps in their field plus several now reside in advanced collections in America.

We were getting this stuff over here when no body else cared less about it in NZ.

regards, Chris

[Panzergrenadiere71]

the ss cap from grenadier doesnt have hbt lining and the one that started this thread its not so much the hbt lining that i have concerns with take a closer look

Lenny,I've took a better look of the green WSS M43 this mornig and you are right ,it's not the classic hbt lining (different texture ) iven if the fabric looks the same to me.
BTW I just wanted to underline that not all the M43's fieldcaps with HBT lining are fakes.IMO

[BenVK]

Some excellent photos here of a HBT lined Pz M43. I couldn't find better ones on the forum.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=374131
No conclusion was reached because, and let's face it, most of us aren't sure.

I'll just throw this in the mix and see what comes out. When I first started collecting, I was advised by a few well known, but no longer posting here characters, that I should leave all the Trapezoid SS M43's alone unless it was a Dachau found version with the Pirate Trap and exposed cardboard bill underneath. Only go for them and the two piece insignia caps I was told. I think we've moved on a lot from that blinkered old school thinking now, yes?. We've got more than a few period photos now of Trap caps that are obviously not Dachau caps.

So, knowing that they existed and are not fantasy, what should we be looking for in an authentic version of one of these? I don't think anyone knows for sure to be honest. So many old wives tails and missinformation has been passed around about them over the years it's going to be hard to cut through the BS.

I've had quite a lot of PM's about the subject. A few from people who say they got their caps direct from vets or know people who have but photos will never be posted because the consensus here will be one of total doubt and that's something that a lot of collectors that don't usualy post here can't be bothered with. I understand that but it's a pity none the less.

The only way I know how to deal with this is to look at each and every cap on it's own merits. I hear what Glenn is saying about a batch turning up years ago and they were bad but to tar every other cap that's similar is not going to get us any further forward in getting to grip with these IMO.

Chris gets a hard time on this forum and I don't really understand why? Better to have an open mind like his than to close off your brain to anything other than what you've already been told by others IMO. Ok so you're gong to make mistakes along the way thinking "glass half full" all the time but as our knowledge increases, those "mistake" purchases made at the time will more frequently turn out to be good decisions.

[J Melvin]

Any comments with regard to the cap in 31 through 39?

[sonderverband]

"Chris gets a hard time on this forum and I don't really understand why? Better to have an open mind like his than to close off your brain to anything other than what you've already been told by others IMO. Ok so you're gong to make mistakes along the way thinking "glass half full" all the time but as our knowledge increases, those "mistake" purchases made at the time will more frequently turn out to be good decisions."

Hear, hear!

I can't think of any nation that had more of a cottage industry type of manufacturing system than the Germans, so variation is par for the course. I love the thrill of the hunt and venturing off the "safe" path.

[BenVK]

Collecting M43's is all about handling them isn't it? What looks good in a photo can turn out to be bad and vica versa. That's why they are such a challenge but also so rewarding. More than any other type of cap IMO. Don't ask me why, I don't know.

[Glenn McInnes]

Any comments with regard to the cap in 31 through 39?

That's the one that started this thread...His Dachau example posted before this one is very nice.





Glenn

[BenVK]

Glenn, what's your thoughts about the one I posted the link to?

[TonyS]

The cap looks okay to me. I have no problem with the grey HBT used as a lining.

The "pull downs" were meant to be longer, the larger the cap ; but could be any length, or even non-existent on some caps.

Can someone tell us the proper use for these so called "pull downs" that were put on the M43 cap?

The reinforcement material in the flaps could be any scrap material that was handy although usually I've seen it as scraps from the lining. I have one SS officers M43 that has grass green Gebirgsjäger piping material used as the reinforcement. Some caps also have no reinforcement material.

Glenn may have seen fakes made with this lining, but as Ben said that is no reason to turn down every cap with it.