Originally posted by Glenn McInnes
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my thoughts alsoGive a man an opinion and you feed him for a day,
teach a man to use the "search" function on the WAF and you feed him for a lifetime. -
looked good for a moment until the evil grommets!Comment
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gromments?
The gromments are non-magnetic and seem to be aluminum. Are their no originals like this? If it wasnt for thease I would be sure this hat was authentic.
Is somebody out there using original insignia and making hats exactly like originals but goofing such an obvious detail?Comment
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Hello Gentlemen,
I agree with the others, that it is probably a reproduction. I do not like the cocade at all, as the weave is too coarse. The eagle looks to have been zig-zag machine sewn at one time, as it appears the ghost trail is still evident at the top of the eagle? (if so, it might follow with the previously mentioned statement by Glenn that they used original insignia?)
Thank you,
CurtissComment
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I know
I know a lot of people looking at this are turned off by gromments. I first was because they look so bright and new but I think it was folded for a long time therefore preserving them.
I did find pics of a Schlesisch cap with very similar gromments but had 6 prongs. I do believe there are documented cases with 8 prongs. Thease seem to be very high quality and of an alloy that resistis corrosion...isnt this what hat makers were after?
I know I'm really plugging this hat but in hand, every single detail in material , construction and workmanship is on the money and it shows signs of wear and storage...I think it has a chance or just a great way to display original insignia...
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eagle
I see what your talking about Curtiss at top of eagle. It's accually a bit "scuffed" at the top of the eagle. But, if you look close the top edge near each wingtip is pristine and clearly never had any other stitching.Comment
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I concur that the hat is a reproduction. The main point for me is the grommets.HCComment
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The grommets are aluminum with an early stick finish and do not seem to be accepted by collectors.
Interesting thing is that the Collectors Guild has no trouble selling black Panzer sidecaps with that exact type of aluminum grommet and has had more than one example.
On the other hand they are quickly dimissed as bad in a tropical M40 with visor. There was a find of such tropical caps in Poland in the early 1990's but these have never been accepted by collectors because no one had ever seen such an example of until then and no one has a veteran example of a tropical M40 with aluminium grommets.
Interesting thing is that the application of the eagle and the manufacture of the cockade are consistant on both the black Panzer example shown here and the tropical M40's so that is a footprint of that maker. Same type of soutache as well with the same wide at the bottom application. They certainly have the potential to be of correct period manufacture, never have a makers name stamp and only a size marking.
Million dollar question however is when did the maker actually make them ???
Does anyone actually have a veteran brought back Panzer sidecap with aluminum grommets or even a field grey example ?
I have an officer sidecap with aluminum grommets but they are not exactly the same. Aluminum was expensive in 1938 - 1942, not common but equally not impossible either.
Leaning strongly towards reproduction on this one but it is not proven beyond doubt and as already stated "the Guild" seems to accept them, no problem.
The "Pink Smock" of German Field Caps
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 09-12-2009, 12:03 PM.Comment
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wait until the buyer goes to sell it to a headgear collector to many people put there trust into dealers hands without knowing anything about the items they buyOriginally posted by 90th Light View Post
Give a man an opinion and you feed him for a day,
teach a man to use the "search" function on the WAF and you feed him for a lifetime.Comment
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trop headgear
I have a Tropical Headgear book by J.R.Figueroa. Vol 2. On page 24 he has this identical eagle down to every stitch. Is this one in the book repro too? Possible..
My point is, I think the eagle is original and it is applied exactly as it should be and when the hat was made...how do we explaine this???Comment
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the eagle on your cap is a good one ,and there are many repro caps pictured in booksGive a man an opinion and you feed him for a day,
teach a man to use the "search" function on the WAF and you feed him for a lifetime.Comment
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allmost
I do think the eagle is original as well as the soutache material. I'm up in the air about the cockade but allso think it may be good.
If it's repro, somebody went through a lot of trouble to try to fool us. What I dont get is why they would goof such an obvious thig as the gromments...
There was an aluminum shortage during the war but really...how much aluminum does it take to make a gromment? You could probebly make a thousand of them with an ounce, so I'm not really sure that argument holds a lot of weight [no pun intended].Comment
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Some like the cockades on them some do not, same with the soutache. Interesting however that the Panzer cockade is the exact same maker as the tropical examples so who ever made these had a very consistant source of supply and they show all the signs of proper factory operation.
Original zinc grommets are always the weak link for a fake. One simply can not get them today and this is often the tell tale sign of a fake.
With original M34 sidecaps however one can encounter a far wider range of grommet types both magnetic and non-magnetic than one would encounter with a tropical M40 which have grommets almost always made of zinc or steel.
Where does this leave a Panzer M40 sidecap with Aluminum grommets ??? well it is a possibility but keep in mind that the tropical M40's by this maker also have those Aluminum grommets and that would be so rare on an original it is not funny.
Is the Panzer cap which started this thread original or fake ???
In my opinion is has a far higher chance of being a post-war fake than being real war-time example by an unknown maker (still a chance however in the opinion of some)
if it was at a good price then it is worth having as an example to study but you will be hard pressed to find many who will say it is right.
They are well made however and if one can not afford the very high prices of "one look, textbook, beyond doubt" example then they display nicely too.
Comes down to what one can live with and how much they are willing or able to spend,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 09-15-2009, 06:51 AM.Comment
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thanks
Thanks Chris for your detailed opininon which I do value. I didnt pay a whole lot of money for the cap and do like it for what I paid. I agree it could be a fake made by a person who was very schooled in the construction of thease caps and used whatever original insignia avalible.
Some questions I still have. If they were unable to obtain the proper gromment more "known" by collectors, where did they get thease and are thease found on any known post-war caps? I didnt mention but I'm not entirly sure the gromments are aluminum. I do believe the washers are but not sure about the gromments. I do know they are not magnetic.
How many panzer troops were issued thease hats?? 10000...20000. How many of thease hats have any one of us ever examined?? Dozens at most and ones picked up by American troops that fought only certain divisions. What about hats made in Holland, France ect...
Most of us collectors seem to, way too quickly dismiss examples we are not used to seeing. Myself included.
One other point about this hat I noticed whn I first looked at it in outside sunlight. The threading looked allmost purple instead of black. Is this normal?
Thanks for all the comments. I'm still learning too and find a hat like this interesting to examine...Comment
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Well I certainly agree that some caps and other items are dismissed far too fast as fake but on the other hand there are some very skilled reproductions out there and that tends to make collectors "gun-shy" over time.
Better to bet on something certain than take the risk on something unknown which is all very safe but it misses all the fun of working out that a variation is in fact original and when a collector can do that on their own then they have really come of age in this field of collecting .
The cap which started this thread is by a maker who used the same type of eagle, cockade and soutache on all their products. Who ever made these Panzer sidecaps, the tropical M40's and the field-grey examples had access to an on-going supply of insignia. This is a point which could indicate original period pre-May 45 production. On the other hand some say the cockades and soutache are not war-time so they always seem to fall into a grey area.
The grommets are aluminum as are the washers. I have studied examples of thses caps closely and they are aluminum for sure. The way finish sticks to the grommet is typical of aluminum which does not hold paint with ease so it has to be coated sometimes chemically.
In my opinion the caps are very well made, they were found not long after the Berlin Wall came down and there does not seem to be any more appearing on the market these days. No collector I know of however has one from a veteran source and no one had seen this type before 1989 but who knows may be someone reading this may add more to what we know about them.
If you have read the "Pink Smock" debate in SS circles of collecting then they are very much like a Pink Smock. Pull one to pieces and they are hard to fault but just like no one has seen the pattern on a Pink Smock which is beyond doubt war-time then also no one has seen a beyond doubt wartime cap with those aluminum grommets ( I must add however that in rare cases some war-time caps have been found with aluminum grommets different to those).
Personally I think they are a nice cap but I can not confirm if they are war time. If you did not pay a lot for it then I would sit on it because who knows one day someone may find something which changes peoples minds about them but just like the "Pink Smocks" at this stage there are many who do not believe in them.
They are certainly fun to compare with other caps and the Panzer eagle is always worth a good price on its own.
Hope this helps, ChrisComment
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