Sun helmet discussion for DAK Historians

[Peter_Suciu]

Just came across this one-not too sure if it fits in this thread but here goes! Dated Oct 1944 with pen on the inside and well worn. Also has the 4 grommets on the side.
Barry

Barry, that certainly seems to be a South African flash. But yet the helmet is that variation of the typical "polo" style helmets, which tend not to have the ventilator on the top. The polo ones (from my research) were made by two firms including Failsworth Hats Ltd., and Vero Everitt Ltd. I have examples from each firm, and each is dated 1942.

Is it possible that this variation with the ventilators was an earlier pattern that may have been imported to South Africa?

I'm suggesting that instead of South Africa supplying these helmets to Holland, that maybe the Dutch were making these helmets for South Africa. As I mentioned previously, it is my understanding that the Dutch used British Wolseley patterns in the Caribbean colonies, and produced helmets locally in the East Indies, where there was a domestic helmet industry.

[Mark Gibson]

I'm suggesting that instead of South Africa supplying these helmets to Holland, that maybe the Dutch were making these helmets for South Africa.

The very suggestion which I have made quite early in this thread and a distinct possibility. I still look forward to seeing an actual example issued to and used by PzRegt8. I know that they are in collections, just hoping that one of the owners will see fit to share with us.

Mark

[John Hodgin]

discuss this matter of the Dutch sun helmet.

I had written in an article for Military Trader that I believed that "Dutch" sun helmets used by the Afrika Korp to be a myth, and I'm going to continue to research this matter.


I'm suggesting that instead of South Africa supplying these helmets to Holland, that maybe the Dutch were making these helmets for South Africa.

Peter, don't these two statements contradict each other?

Gentlemen, the one Dutch helmet with a faded but legible marking is marked "Holland." The helmets in the period photos are Dutch sun helmets, you may take that to the bank!
Regards,
John

[Peter_Suciu]

Peter, don't these two statements contradict each other?

Gentlemen, the one Dutch helmet with a faded but legible marking is marked "Holland." The helmets in the period photos are Dutch sun helmets, you may take that to the bank!
Regards,
John

John, I had said "I had written that this was a myth," and now I'm questioning all of this even more. I have long been convinced that it was a myth, and now I'm wondering if there is any truth to these possibly being Dutch.

However, I'm still dubious about the "Holland" stamp for a few reasons, including the fact that the nation is called "The Netherland" and "Holland" is a region. Not saying it is a fake stamp, but it just causes confusion. I've tried to find anything else stamped, "Holland," and so far I haven't been able to find such a stamp. I've seen that stamp and my first impression was that it looked like a postal cancelation stamp.

I also have been speaking to a few collectors this week who happen to be in South Africa, and the opinions that have been suggested is that South African equipment may have been captured at Tobruk in the spring of 1941 and possibly shipped back to Germany, where it was issued to troops heading to North Africa.

One of the collectors with whom I discussed this matter said that there was no question that the helmets were South African in his mind. He had suggested that the SA helmet with the ventilators were pre-war and our research shows these were produced in the early to mid-1930s. The version without the ventilators were likely wartime produced, beginning after 1941.

So is it all possible that the helmets were captured at Tobruk and may have somehow shipped through Holland before being issued? I know it sounds like a stretch, but it is possible.

I think that the one point that has never been addressed is that this type of helmet has been seen time and time as being used by the South Africans, prior to and during the war. Yet, there has never been any photographic evidence that the helmets were ever used by the Dutch military anywhere. This suggests that if the helmets were Dutch, they were made in surprising large numbers and yet never supplied to the forces. Yes, the Netherlands was caught off guard when the Germans invaded, but I've never come across any regulations that suggest the Dutch would use these helmets. There were also no other significant updates to the uniforms used by the Dutch for the colonies in the late 1930s that would suggest a new pattern helmet would be required.

Finally, the Dutch were still using World War I styled steel helmets at the outbreak of the war - while ironically providing the Romanians with helmets. I just don't see that if the country didn't have enough steel helmets, which would be more important for defense in Europe, that it would be a stretch to produce helmets for its colonies. How great was the concern that the Japanese would even invade the East Indies colonies in 1939/1940?

So if I'm filled with contradictions, it is just because I am trying to consider numerous options. I find this extremely fascinating.

[Mark Gibson]

Gentlemen, the one Dutch helmet with a faded but legible marking is marked "Holland." The helmets in the period photos are Dutch sun helmets, you may take that to the bank!
Regards,
John

John,
You have just confirmed what I had been told by a collector friend recently, which is why I have continued to point to these being Dutch made, even suggesting that South African helmets were made by the Dutch for export.
Thank you and thank your friend for providing the information.

Mark

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi John

Thanks for the verbal confirmation that You already knew. Would really like to see this Holland stamp ? But its still now just a "myth" until seen however... bankers or not.....

& Peter

The elements of the 15th Pz Div were issued these on or before Easter, 4-14-41, which is proven by the date on the reverse of one of the photos. The actual units were elements of the 15th Pz Div, 33 Recon Bn, 33 Art Regt, HQ Co. of the 2nd Bn 8th Pz Regt, along with the 6th Pz Co. There is reason to believe the 2nd and 5th Pz Co's were also equipped with them as well. Possibly more units, so maybe as many as 500-1000 "Dutch" piths were issued to the 15th Pz Div in Germany before the departure for Afrika mid April '41. The 5th Lt Div DAK did not invest Tobruk until 4-11-41 so it would be impossible for these to be captured in Afrika and sent to Europe. They have had to been procured in Europe before April '41....

Another point is there were only a few South African Armored Car Regts in North Afrika in early '41. The larger units arrived in the late summer of '41.

Now it still remains where & when in Holland were these taken by the Germans ?
And were these originally an export version to the South African Forces or for the Dutch Forces or for the Dutch civilians ?

Last but not least, Chris

Interesting idea about the KM capture, but pretty sure any haul like this would have been noted somewhere officiallly and the PR would have been all over it. Those Germans loved to take pictures, but only when they were winning

[MilitaryCollect]

Sun helmet discussion for DAK Historians

Hello,

Very interesting information!

However, I question the notion that the stocks of Dutch piths were actually "captured". The NSB was the only party in Holland (by 1941) after the German invasion in May, 1940. If the piths were manufactured thereafter, I would surmise that it was most probably pursuant to a German war productions contract.

Here's a neat site discussing the NSB's history in Holland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...ls_and_Symbols

Christopher

[MilitaryCollect]

Sun helmet discussion for DAK Historians

Thanks very much Christopher, and of course they did!

More on Dutch tropical uniforms in the future. So, the critical question is: did the Dutch and South Africans copy the other's designs, or did they purchase tropical equipment from each other?
Regards,
John

John,

There was a link between South Africa and the Dutch and one probably copied the other's design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Free_State

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boer_War

I doubt the Germans permitted Dutch trade with South Africa after 14 Mai 1940. Moreover, the "Axis Pact" probably precluded the Dutch from militarily interviening in it's East Indies colonies war with Japan. Therefore, Holland probably did not manufacture the tropical piths for it's own military purposes.

Christopher

[John Hodgin]

So is it all possible that the helmets were captured at Tobruk and may have somehow shipped through Holland before being issued? I know it sounds like a stretch, but it is possible.

No Peter, this is impossible as it does not fit the time line for the battles of Tobruk. The helmets were worn and photographed in Germany during Easter of 41, Tobruk was not captured until June of 42.

The helmet I know of is authentic and untampered with, it is indeed stamped "Holland." I have a Luft. tropical tunic which also stamped "Holland." It can be seen in my book.

Will post a photo of the stamp in the sun helmet if the collector allows, and I believe he will. It will be some time before I can visit him and photograph the helmet and stamp however, so patience is required.

Regards,
John

[John Hodgin]

Hello,

I would surmise that it was most probably pursuant to a German war productions contract.

Christopher

This could well be Christopher as the Holland produced Luftwaffe tunic I mention was subcontracted to the Holland company by a Berlin firm.

John

[Peter_Suciu]

No Peter, this is impossible as it does not fit the time line for the battles of Tobruk. The helmets were worn and photographed in Germany during Easter of 41, Tobruk was not captured until June of 42.

The Siege of Tobruk began on 10 April 1941, and lasted through December of 1941. The city was captured by Rommel the next year. So maybe unlikely, but certainly not "impossible."

[Peter_Suciu]

The elements of the 15th Pz Div were issued these on or before Easter, 4-14-41, which is proven by the date on the reverse of one of the photos.

Now it still remains where & when in Holland were these taken by the Germans ?
And were these originally an export version to the South African Forces or for the Dutch Forces or for the Dutch civilians ?

The only issue I have here is that we have to take the date for what it is worth. I'm not trying to be difficult on this matter, but is the date hand written? And how is it written, European numbering as in 14-4-41 or American as in 4-14-41. That would shed some light on this. Just asking btw.

But the point that still sticks with me is that enough collectors in South Africa maintain that these helmets were never imported from Holland. So this begs a question as why a helmet so similar would be made in Holland. The ties between South African and Holland are also not as great as one thinks. I know several South Africans and they don't really think of the Netherlands as the homeland.

The question you bring up regarding "who" the helmets were for (if these were made in Holland) is one that just can't be answered and is where I have the biggest problem. Why civilians? Were Dutch civilians really in need of sun helmets? By the 1930s the British sun helmet industry was practically dead. Most helmets were being made in the Far East and India. The British actually stopped making the Wolseley pattern because it was too expensive and switched to the khaki sola pith, while the various Cawnpore/Bombay Bowler patterns were being made in India. You see a big shift on the type of British helmets being made, I can't imagine that the Dutch would pick up if the British weren't making helmets.

As for the Dutch military... I think this one has been fairly well addressed. The Dutch didn't need the helmets.

I have wondered if the Dutch helmets (if these were actually Dutch made), were made to be copies of the South African helmets. The problem obviously is whether the Germans would have ever seen or obtained a South African helmet by this point. But that is one possible (unlikely) theory that I've considered.

I think that final point is that if these helmets were being produced in Holland, why didn't the production continue? This has been something else that I've tried to consider. The Germans had multiple sun helmet patterns, and yet this pattern wasn't widely used. That to me has always suggested that these were captured, and not produced for the German army. Of course I know that it could be a matter of materials avaialble, etc.

We do know that the Germans used captured British, French, Greek (which were copies of the British helmets) and even Italian sun helmets. So the captured stock for these SA/Dutch styled helmets is the more likely possibility.

Finally, whether these helmets were Dutch or not, one point that I must stress is that it still likely that true South African helmets were also used. One point that has come up time and time again when I've discussed this is that none of the helmets are South African. I think it is safe to say that South African helmets would likely have been captured as well, even if these other helmets aren't those.

[John Hodgin]

The Siege of Tobruk began on 10 April 1941, and lasted through December of 1941. The city was captured by Rommel the next year. So maybe unlikely, but certainly not "impossible."

Is it your opinion the Germans were able to enter Tobruk before Easter 41 and remove hundreds of helmets that did not exist? (There were no South Africans in Libya until November of 1941.) Then ship those helmets back to Germany in time for issue before Easter? All this while the Australians stood by as the DAK loaded the helmets on trucks?

Will stick to impossible, but beyond that, ridiculous to even comprehend.

[Peter_Suciu]

Is it your opinion the Germans were able to enter Tobruk before Easter 41 and remove hundreds of helmets that did not exist? (There were no South Africans in Libya until November of 1941.) Then ship those helmets back to Germany in time for issue before Easter? All this while the Australians stood by as the DAK loaded the helmets on trucks?

Will stick to impossible, but beyond that, ridiculous to even comprehend.

John-
You make a good point. So yes, probably "<!--StartFragment -->highly improbable."
PS

[John Hodgin]

Would like to add that my previous post was written in haste, and is not directed against Peter personally. The post reflects a passion about the war in North Africa.