Sun helmet discussion for DAK Historians

[John Hodgin]

OK Gentlemen, let's please discuss these sun helmets.

This example is owned by a friend, and the illustration is from the "Kurtz" Afrika Korps book.

[lieproo]

WELL , LOOKS LIKE A DUTCH TROPICAL HELMET WITH THE ADDITION OF THE NATIONAL PLATES , THEY WERE UTILIZED I THINK EARLY IN AFRIKA. CORRECT ME IF I WRONG.

[Mark Gibson]

They were definitely utilised by the Germans in North Africa and I've seen a few pictured. I did have a album a few years ago with a large number of the soldiers photographed wearing these, I just wish that I hadn't sold it because the buyer took all photographs out and sold them individually on ebay.

Although this is the largest that I can show of the piths from this album, they were definitely the Dutch examples.

Mark

[Mark Gibson]

Here is a recent addition showing a panzer soldier with the Dutch pith. I haven't taken a proper scan so will show the one from when I bought it.

How many of these actually survived is a very good question. I've never seen any here in Australia but I'm sure that some of the older collectors here would have over the years.

Mark

[afrikasandman]

Mark,

So your the guy that outbid me on this picture! I agree these are totally legit, just like the italian piths with german shields. I have seen british piths with german shields. Never had a chance to buy them but they definatly used what ever they could get their hands on. I do like the looks of these better than the 2nd model german piths. Still hard to beat the look of a nice worn/sunfaded 1st model. Matt

[ApathyL]

I just wish that I hadn't sold it because the buyer took all photographs out and sold them individually on ebay.



Mark

that buyer was such a dixkhead..just had to say so coz it bothers me a lot....especially DAK album

[Mark Gibson]

that buyer was such a dixkhead..just had to say so coz it bothers me a lot....especially DAK album

How do you think I felt when seeing it broken up. I was just devastated.
It was an original Panzer support troops album, which is interesting because a well known author has stated that the stocks of Dutch piths were utilised by 15th Panzer Division due to inadequate supplies of German piths. This is supported by the fact that many of the soldiers seen wearing these piths are either panzer or panzer support troops.

Mark

P.S. Sorry Matt, I just can't resist a great portrait photograph but I'm sure that you've probably outbid me a few times as well.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hello John

These were used by the AA33 Bn and 8th Pz Regt. Photos of 15th Pz Div before embarkation in Europe confirm this. These were issued as substitute Piths for the tropical uniform already in short supply. This demonstrates the total lack of preparation of Germany for a war in North Afrika....

with regards
Tim

[John Hodgin]

Good conversation gentlemen!

A major reason for my beginning the thread is that a French publication, and several others, state that these are not Dutch, but South African sun helmets which were captured in Africa.

Indeed Tim. I have problems with this theory because there are ID'ed and dated photos of a company of 8th Panzer wearing these sun helmets in Germany BEFORE embarking for Africa. Hard for me to accept that South African sun helmets were available in central Europe before operation Sunflower began!

The markings in the helmet shown are faded out. However another friend has a Dutch helmet with faded markings, and will post what they tell us later. This advanced collector actually once owned BOTH of these helmets!

Was hoping some WAF member owned another one of these sun helmets with clear stamps
Regards,
John

[afrikasandman]

These dutch helmets are very nice. I would truely love to see other examples of these! Have always like the foreign piths that were adopted for german use. Shows that your soldiers use what ever they can lay their hands on, adapt and overcome! Matt

[Jos L C]

I bet they're South African..

Jos.

[NZMark]

Tim,
I must disagree with you on the 'total lack of preparation' point
I think it more accurate to state that supplies were inadequate in some areas due to the (lack of) spead of production of specific items.
The timeline of inception to actual issue of the tropical uniform (and equipment) to the first troops in Africa was exceptional...
Regards,
Mark

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Mark

Your right, "total" lack of preparation is over stated. As late as 1938 the German Army High Command dismissed the need for maps of North Afrika as out of the Theatre of Operations....though the need for tropical uniforms was apparent, thats not the same as equiping troops to operate in a Theatre with the logistic nightmare that was Afrika. Which they never quite mastered.
When the need arose the Germans took to it with their usual efficiency.

with regards
Tim

[Jos L C]

No more thoughts about their origin except they must be Dutch ?

Jos.

[90th Light]

No more thoughts about their origin except they must be Dutch ?

Jos.

Why do you think South African Jos ?

Makes sense that the helmets were captured from Dutch factory stocks in 1940, they were intended for use by Dutch Soldiers in the Dutch East Indies.

They never captured South African equipment in huge quantities and what they did get in North Africa from the South Africans was more often than not British supplied and of UK manufacture.

From what I have always been told or seen, they are Dutch.

Interesting thread, Chris