Sun helmet discussion for DAK Historians

[Tim O'Keefe]

Good conversation gentlemen!

A major reason for my beginning the thread is that a French publication, and several others, state that these are not Dutch, but South African sun helmets which were captured in Africa.

Indeed Tim. I have problems with this theory because there are ID'ed and dated photos of a company of 8th Panzer wearing these sun helmets in Germany BEFORE embarking for Africa. Hard for me to accept that South African sun helmets were available in central Europe before operation Sunflower began!

The markings in the helmet shown are faded out. However another friend has a Dutch helmet with faded markings, and will post what they tell us later. This advanced collector actually once owned BOTH of these helmets!

Was hoping some WAF member owned another one of these sun helmets with clear stamps
Regards,
John

Hi John

Thought i would bring this interesting thread back up again.
While no one has posted another example, one of our members has confirmed that some of the units of the 15th Pz Div were issued these. "They were outfitted around Baumholder or Idar-Oberstein, including Tropenhelm."

You mention that there is a second example of these "Dutch Piths" with faded markings in another collection. Any chance of seeing that example's stamps ? Or at least learning what the stamp can tell us ?

with the best regards and have a great Birthday too !
Tim

[Peter_Suciu]

I was traveling (ironically I was in Egypt when this discussion started and yet found not one sun helmet in all my travels) so apologies for coming in late. My collecting has focused almost exclusively on sun helmets over the last five years, and I've amassed about 100+ from all over the world, dating back to the Zulu War through to the modern day. I spent much of this time doing research for my book Military Sun Helmets of the World, and I hope to do a second volume to further discuss this matter of the Dutch sun helmet.

I had written in an article for Military Trader that I believed that "Dutch" sun helmets used by the Afrika Korp to be a myth, and I'm going to continue to research this matter. Over the past five years I have visited several military museums in Holland I have never seen a "Dutch" sun helmet that resembles the ones reported to be of Dutch origin that were used by the Afrika Korp, nor have I ever seen a helmet in photos that was clearly this "Dutch" pattern. Nor have I ever come across a photo of the Dutch using such a helmet. I still tend to believe the helmets I have seen in the photos in use are in fact South African.

That said, I'm still very confused about these slightly different helmets that have the Afrika Korp plates. I would love to see one in the flesh, but so far that hasn't been possible. I also would love to get a clear idea whether any of these came directly from any veterans. I would very much love to compare these with the South African examples, in part because I'm very curious about the materials.

I can add that as with other forms of headgear, sun helmets were copied by so many nations. For example it is pretty clear that the Italian M28 is likely based on the British Wolseley pattern helmet. Spain also made its own Wolseley helmets, as did Belgium, which were also used by the Ethiopians after the war. There is no chance these helmets were Belgian by the way. They never used a pattern even close to the Dutch/South African helmet.

The question that still sticks in my mind is why the Dutch would have produced such a helmet? The Dutch had a few colonies in the Caribbean and of course its colonies in the Far East. Is it possible that they began producing helmets to be used in these colonies and chose a pattern that so closely resembled the South African model? I suppose it is possible, but that seems odd, considering that India, Singapore and other parts of the Far East had been producing sun helmets in large numbers. This is why the materials are of interest to me. By the 1930s helmets were being made of sola pith again (hence the name pith helmet) as opposed to cork. The South African helmets aren't cork either, nor are these pith.

This would be the interesting thing to consider. Cork isn't as good for jungle climates as it is for hot dry climates. So if the helmets are cork, it would seem an odd choice to use in the Far East. On the other hand, if the helmets are wicker than it would prove that the material is different from that of the traditional South African helmet, which was likely an evolution from a polo helmet.

Finally, I was able to discuss this with historian and professor Nigel Thomas, who also authored several books for Osprey. He had stated the "Dutch" origin, but after talking to him, he changed his mind as well:
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"Having looked again at the C2 figure (The German Army 1939-45 Volume 2) in question I don't know why I ever thought it was Dutch. I also used Dal McGuirk's book as a reference and Stephen Andrew was very influential in working out the plates (normally the artist just follows the author's instructions), was a big fan of the book. When I look at the figure now it is as clear as day that this is indeed a South African pith helmet. Indeed I seem to remember reading that the Germans captured a lot of these in North Africa and pressed them into service, which is all very likely as the Germans were quite happy to use foreign uniforms and weapons when it suited them.

"Maybe the term 'Dutch' arose from the fact that the Brits sometimes used to refer to the Afrikaners as Dutch, which indeed was their origin. Certainly the Royal Netherlands Army never used tropical helmets, and their offshoot, the Royal Netherlands East Indies Army, did not use pith helmets, as far as I can see, preferring peaked caps or slouch-hats. The helmet worn by the Royal Netherlands Army at the beginning of the 20th Century was dark blue and closer to the British helmet shape; certainly nothing to do with Figure C2."

[90th Light]

So the South Africans were supplying the Germans with tropical pith helmets in 1941. Enough in-fact to be able to outfit entire units of the German Army by Easter 1941 as the pictures to which Tim has posted and referred to prove.

What a bunch of "Turn-coats" the South Africans are then

and I wonder how many South Africans who died in North Africa fighting the Germans 1941 to 43 or in Italy after that would role in their graves at such a thought.

When you stop and think about it, does this make sense or not ???

South Africa supplied Germany with Pith helmets so they could wear them to kill British forces including South Africans.

Sort of like the British Dunlop rubber tyre trade deal for the German Zeiss Binos & Scopes which took place in 1915.

Unbelievable but possible, Chris

[barry1954]

Just came across this one-not too sure if it fits in this thread but here goes! Dated Oct 1944 with pen on the inside and well worn. Also has the 4 grommets on the side.
Barry

[barry1954]

It also has that horseshoe shaped stamp on the inside as the example posted previously-or at least it looks like it. I am waiting for more info on the piece. Inside written 1 Oct 1944 Dr. H Van Onselen
Barry

[John Hodgin]

Great input gentlemen, please keep posting any new information that surfaces.

Knew from a DAK collector friend that South Africa produced a helmet similar to the example in the Kurtz book, but did not state this initially from not wanting to influence other contributions.

May be able to provide images of the stamp from one of the German used sun helmets of this style, but this will take some time, and as already stated, the marking is very faded.

And again, marking is almost faded out of the example which is illustrated in the Kurtz book, it is very faint and impossible to read, one must search to even see it's trace.

Will find out the provenance of both these examples I have seen. Do know that the provenance of both is good, both were indeed used by the DAK.

Chris, I still find your theory hard to accept, though not impossible, and would like to know for certain how 8th Panzer had large numbers of these helmets before leaving Germany for Africa.

Regards,
John

[MilitaryCollect]

Sun helmet discussion for DAK Historians

Hello,

Great thread!

Here's one site which suggests that the Dutch did maintain it's East Indies colony and had summer issue, including a pith helm.

http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastin..._Uniforms.html

Christopher

[John Hodgin]

the Dutch did maintain it's East Indies colony and had summer issue, including a pith helm.

Thanks very much Christopher, and of course they did!

More on Dutch tropical uniforms in the future. So, the critical question is: did the Dutch and South Africans copy the other's designs, or did they purchase tropical equipment from each other?
Regards,
John

[MilitaryCollect]

Sun helmet discussion for DAK Historians

Hello,

Here's a few neat links on the subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherl...aign#Aftermath

http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ch+pith+helmet

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=238195

More authority for characterizing these variant pith's as Dutch is found in several reference books, including Dal McGuirk's "Rommel's Army in Africa", p. 141 (ISBN: 0-09-166450-0).

I am again very sorry for the missing photos in one of the posts above, and am most happy to repost.

Christopher

[John Hodgin]

Christopher, thanks for the additional links. Karsten's photo is one of the ones taken in Germany which I remember. This is an incredible photo!

[John Hodgin]

And this photo from PzV is also incredible, wonderful, and so sharp and well lit I am certain it was taken in Germany before going to Afrika. A VERY DESIRABLE PHOTO!

[Jos L C]

Hello,

Great thread!

Here's one site which suggests that the Dutch did maintain it's East Indies colony and had summer issue, including a pith helm.

http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastin..._Uniforms.html

Christopher

We've to be careful before we know for sure.., these are just drawings..

Here's a line from the text on that page ..

"I also was somewhat amazed by the Warrant-officer wearing a tropical helmet, I had never seen that, I wonder where you got it, isn't it a British Navy-officer?"

Jos.

[John Hodgin]

We've to be careful before we know for sure.., these are just drawings..

Jos.

Much of the world's valuable history (before cameras) was recorded by drawings, would not dismiss them so easily.

[90th Light]

Just to float another possibility which has not yet been put forward;

I was pondering as I read this again today, how the Germans could have captured a sufficient quantity of South African Pith Helmets and had them in their supply system by the start of 1941 so as to be able to outfit entire units by Easter 1941 which were leaving Germany for Afrika (some pictures on this thread clearly show this beyond doubt).

Then it dawned on me that they could be from a Kriegsmarine booty capture. I know this may seem like a wild card but in the early stages of the war, the U-Boats, Aux-Cruisers and Surface Raiders were boarding merchant ships and taking them over if they could. Capturing both the ship and its cargo which was then escorted back to Germany by a back-up crew from a German KM supply ship.

Now I do not know why the South Africans would be sending Pith Helmets any where but in 1940 the British had their backs to the wall and I know for a fact that they requested everything that could be sent at all to be sent from the Empire.

For example; My city here in New Zealand, we sent a boat load or two of woollen battle dress. One of these boats was captured for sure because a friend of mine who lives in Europe and is a serious collector of U-boat picked up such a battle dress made here in NZ at our local mill in 1940 (no longer in business today) which had been pressed it into service on the U-boat because it had such a high content of wool in it and the Germans knew that (he got it directly from the German vet and has also seen another made in our mill converted to KM/ U-boat use when he was in Holland )

Just a theory but perhaps a more plausible one than South Africa selling such items to Germany at that time. ( I will have to re-track my "turn-coat" feelings)

Possible or not guys ???

Chris

[Jos L C]

Much of the world's valuable history (before cameras) was recorded by drawings, would not dismiss them so easily.

What I mean is that we don't know what we're seeing, is it a Dutch soldier or a English one ?
I've seen quite some books with drawings of soldiers that were full of errors with wrong text.
We first have to know how they looked for sure and I think a photo would help better than a drawing in this case, besides that who says the Dutch wore Dutch pith helmets and not English ?
Till the 50's or even 60's the Dutch soldiers were wearing English battle dress et all.., even when I was in the military in the 70's I was wearing English boots etc..

Jos.