Sun helmet discussion for DAK Historians

[NZMark]

I think we need to see the stamps of the pith that kicked off this interesting discussion or another exactly like it...(although asking may be easier than getting a result). This would solve a few conundrums raised in this thread...
Regards,
Mark

[90th Light]

Well I have just done a quick search of Dutch soldiers headgear in the Dutch East Indies and I can not find any pictures of this style of tropical helmet being worn unless their navy wore it.

This now is a puzzle and where did those ones being worn in Easter 1941 come from. I mean the Germans had not over-run any South African units and their supply dumps at that stage of the war.

Could they be Belgium captured booty intended for the Congo ???

I now tend to agree with Jos, the commonly accepted theory of them being Dutch may in fact be a myth so where did the early ones come from ?

Chris

[Jos L C]

I've heard from someone who studied Dutch East Indie that sun helmets were never supplied to those soldiers..
That was a jungle war not sand..

Jos.

[afrikasandman]

Guys I hate to say it but I think we may never learn how the german got a hold of them. I know I have a few pics of soldiers heading for Afrika with a hodgepodge of tropical pith helmets. But they are in Hawaii tucked away while im here in Iraq. One picture im pretty sure has a mixture of some of these SA and 1st models all in the same lot. Think the pic is dated 41 or 42. Matt

[90th Light]

I've heard from someone who studied Dutch East Indie that sun helmets were never supplied to those soldiers..
That was a jungle war not sand..

Jos.

Jos,

I do not think it has anything to do with war in the sand. It is about fighting in the heat and keeping the sun off your head.

Every colonial power has worn some form of tropical helmet in a jungle enviroment up to 1941 and beyond including the Americans and the Japanese.

also the Dutch navy was wearing Pith helmets in the Dutch East Indies for sure but this would appear to be a white helmet. I just can not find any pictures of Dutch soldiers wearing such a helmet but it does not mean they did not as I have only spent 1 hour so far looking at such images.

The point is that Holland had a reason to produce Pith helmets but did they produce the model which started this thread ?

These Pith helmets have always been referred to as Dutch for as long as I can remember so I now wonder why and how did the Germans get so many by early 1941,

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

Great discussion

The Pith that started the thread may have the makers mark to faded to read... or in fact says Pretoria which would confirm Jos's theory. Is it also possible that these were purchased directly from South Africa by Germany in 1940/41 ?

Agree that Piths were worn in Jungle operations in WWII as well as the 'Nam.
But the failure to get to the bottom of this i find intriging. Is yet another DAK "rumor" shot down in flames,...?

with regards
Tim

[John Hodgin]

Jos,

I do not think it has anything to do with war in the sand. It is about fighting in the heat and keeping the sun off your head.

Every colonial power has worn some form of tropical helmet in a jungle enviroment up to 1941 and beyond including the Americans and the Japanese.


Chris

Chris is absolutely correct Jos, "sun" helmets are about protection from heat, wherever it is necessary, not just in the desert. Sun helmets were worn in jungles the world over, just look at an NVA helmet in Vietnam, as Chris mentioned.

In fact, the original Heer tropical uniforms may have been olive because they were designed for jungle, not desert...........
John

[pauke]

sun helmet

An idea regarding the first type German sun helmet. In 1964 I bought one in a surplus store for 50 cents (still cheap for that time). Soon afterwards I wore it several times and once in rain. When the helmet dried out the leather shrank and cracked. I quickly realized it was for dry weather only. US sun helmets were without leather components and thus suitable for wet environments, such as the Pacific war theater. Do the "Dutch"- style helmets have any leather parts? If so, then they're likely only meant for arid conditions. A second note regarding the "Dutch"-style helmet is that when I mentioned to a friend who wore this style helmet with Pz.A.A. 33 from the start of their time in N. Africa he was incensed that I called this a Beutehelm. He replied they were properly purchased for use. I dropped the topic but will try to see if there is any record of how PzAA 33 got their issue.

[Jos L C]

Chris is absolutely correct Jos, "sun" helmets are about protection from heat, wherever it is necessary, not just in the desert. Sun helmets were worn in jungles the world over, just look at an NVA helmet in Vietnam, as Chris mentioned.

In fact, the original Heer tropical uniforms may have been olive because they were designed for jungle, not desert...........
John

I know they're protection for heat, John ...
.., but I will see you crawling through thick bushes with a sun helmet on the head ..
You'll hate your hat just after 10 minutes and throw it away and then put on your fighting cap..

Point actually was that Dutch soldiers didn't had any pith helmets as far as investigations are now.

Jos.

[90th Light]

I have had a couple of emails and PM's about this (yes, have cleared some space in my PM box and apologises to those trying)

Seems these helmets could be a private purchase item made in Holland and used commercially by companies like Shell in the Dutch colonies, arid climates and the tropics. Would appear a reasonable stock pile was captured by the Germans in 1940 and put to use.

The South African army may have adopted them as standard issue after being approached by the private Dutch company which made them and then made them under licence. Maybe some of our UK Commonwealth collectors can confirm.

The feelings is that they are of Dutch origin and we need to touch base with some of our members who collect Dutch uniforms who could have examples.

This is not something I have discovered myself but is information I have been asked to add to this very interesting debate as it gains more following,

Chris

[90th Light]

I know they're protection for heat, John ...
.., but I will see you crawling through thick bushes with a sun helmet on the head ..
You'll hate your hat just after 10 minutes and throw it away and then put on your fighting cap..

Point actually was that Dutch soldiers didn't had any pith helmets as far as investigations are now.

Jos.

Jos, Some British Chindits wore them in the hard fighting in Burma right up to 1945, maybe not as combat wear (they favoured a big brim shapless slouch hat) but certainly behind the lines were one is exposed to the sun and esp. officers,

Chris

[Jos L C]

Well, probably other countries prefered sun helmets, but I'd like to see a Dutch soldier with one ..

concerning private purchase I've read that a Dutch maker had stopped making the Dutch type sun helmet before war, because there was no market for them ...
Now, if there is no market ........ and you stopped producing the few that were needed ....
I don't think there were many makers of these in Holland those days and no reason to have a couple of 100 in stock.., but that's just my simple thought at this moment.

Jos.

[John Hodgin]

Point actually was that Dutch soldiers didn't had any pith helmets as far as investigations are now.

Jos.

Please keep checking into this Jos so we can get to the truth. Do you know any Dutch colonial period collectors?

Thanks for all!
John

[SprogCollector]

Gents:
The helmet shown below is a made in South Africa. The "U" with the small arrow above it is a wartime marking used on South African equipment. The arrow is called the 'broad arrow' mark and appears on all British/Commonwealth Army uniforms and equipment.

A larger version of the "U" containing the arrow is upside down and to the upper right of the 1943 date. This is the more commonly seen version of this stamp

Prior to 1943, naval forces would have had an Admiralty anchor stamp.

Brits have the arrow alone; Canada has the arrow within the "C"; India above the "I"; between "AF" for Austrlian Forces; between "NZ" for New Zealand, etc.

[Mark Gibson]

Gents:

Brits have the arrow alone; Canada has the arrow within the "C"; India above the "I"; between "AF" for Austrlian Forces; between "NZ" for New Zealand, etc.

I'm not sure about the others but Great Britain has WD (War Department) and Australia has D D with the arrow in between (Department of Defence). The Australian D D is nicknamed Dad and Dave.

I'm still hopeful that someone with a German used example of these pith helmets will post the interior markings for us. If any collectors with one would prefer te remain anonymous than I am happy to post pictures on their behalf. Just send them to sanjuro5@iinet.net.au
The only way that this interesting discussion will be settled is by seeing an original German used example and not the South African.
I still believe that consideration should be given to Dutch makers providing South Africa with helmets, a distinct possibility considering the historical ties between both nations.

Mark