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    #16
    Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

    They never captured South African equipment in huge quantities and what they did get in North Africa from the South Africans was more often than not British supplied and of UK manufacture.

    I agree with this Chris. However the design is identical to the South African sun helmet, thus Jos' thoughts that they are South African.
    Esse Quam Videri

    Comment

      #17
      Interesting question is, why did the Dutch have such helmets ?

      It's 1940, after a few days resistance Holland is covered with Germans, they found a store, started looting and "captured" these helmets.. ?
      They were not captured from Dutch soldiers, that's for sure.., because they didn't wear any.

      Where in Holland did they came from and who made them then and what was their purpose in Holland ?

      ... besides that the few kork Dutch pith helmets that were made were white color and different design, they were made before the war for people going to India, after 1920 they were only used at stage in theatres ..

      I would be very surprised that the helmets in question were Dutch, but I understand that there's less proof sofar.

      Jos.
      Last edited by Jos Le Conté; 09-09-2009, 09:57 AM.

      Comment

        #18
        Considering that the Germans used Russian tent material to construct tunics should clear up any doubts that the Germans used any & all resources. Mark is right that in terms of uniforms & equipment the Germans were prepared for Africa but they had a ton of problems with their vehicles and planes not adapting to desert conditions and breaking down when they first arrived. Some modifications to their equipment helped alleviate these problems.

        Comment

          #19
          Hi Jos

          I too have been puzzled as to wear these Piths originally came from...

          Here are two previous threads that show some of these Piths on members of the DAK before embarkation to Afrika. Seems unlikely they would be South African unless this was some sort of pre-war mass purchase, interesting....

          http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=238195

          See post # 1 & 3 for an entire DAK Company from 15th Pz Div April '41 with them before embarkation.

          http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...ght=dutch+pith

          See post # 5 & 13 both are DAK soldats wearin the same style pith again before embarkation.

          To the German High command the idea of German troops in Afrika seemed remote as late Sep, 1940. The DAK received no desert training prior to arrival. There wasn't much prior preperation for the African campaign until it was deemed needed with O'Connors brillant offensive in Dec '40. The lack of German made piths was supplemented with these "Dutch" and some French and Italian made piths too. One rumor is these were made in or near Breda. But would like to see some more examples with the makers stamps inside....

          Andy's correct about the lack of preparation for the DAK AFV's, as only 25 Pz's of the 150 Pz's in Pz Regt #5 reached Tobruk in running condition on April 11 '41. Do to the air filters and shocks mainly. By Easter only 38 Pz's were in the Tobruk area. The attacks in Libya '41 were made with Italian maps which left alot to be desired for navigation too. OKH had decided against any German made maps of Afrika in 1938 as out of the theatre of operations.

          with regards
          Tim

          Comment

            #20
            If made in Breda they should be stamped with "MOL -Breda" or something.., I can hardly believe this Dutch maker had so many pith helmets in his store those days..
            Dutch people don't wear pith helmets.
            They could've forced him to make a couple of 100, but did they ?

            It's only a rumor you say..
            Many people are very certain these are Dutch, is this only based on the rumor or do they know the story how these were "captured" ?

            THE Dutch pith helmet looked more like this, but only a couple were made and certainly not during war.., that's what I've found out, but till evidence shows up I think the helmets in question are South-African.

            Jos.
            Attached Files

            Comment

              #21
              OK, to break the silence.., here's a pic of a "Dutch" helmet in question IMO..

              The stamp says " Pretoria" , whatever that means..

              Now I'd like to see the MOL stamped ones ..

              Jos.
              Attached Files

              Comment

                #22
                Jos

                Thanks for posting this makers stamp. But its dated 1943.
                Agree, would really like to see the makers stamp on the Pith that John posted and any others that collectors may have ? I use the term "rumor" as i do not have any facts to back it up other than the word of some knowledgeable authors etc.

                Except for the pics of the soldats before embarkation...which may imply they're not from South Africa ? And would really like to learn of the "capture" of these in 1940 ?

                Tim

                p/s Chris, Disagree about South African stock captured though. Large amounts of South African gear was taken at the fall of Tobruk in '42, but that does not help in this discussion.

                Comment

                  #23
                  Well, here's the helmet..

                  Even dated 1943 I'd like to see the relation towards Dutch.., it's a South-African army helmet with insignia..

                  Jos.
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                    #24
                    ..
                    Attached Files

                    Comment

                      #25
                      A few years ago I passed on one of these from a South African chap that purchased it directly from the widow of a vet in SA... Since I wasn't familiar with this type of pith I didn't purchase it. Education is priceless in this hobby.

                      Thanks for the pictures Mark.

                      Asper

                      Comment

                        #26
                        Jos,

                        That's quite a pith helmet and definitely appears to be the same as those utilised by the Germans in North Africa.
                        You actually don't need to convince me anymore that these were used by South Africa because I did a bit of research and found plenty of pics of these in use.

                        My only question is to do with the origins of these helmets.
                        Were they initially made in Holland for export to South Africa?
                        This could be a very good explanation for German troops being issued these in Europe prior to departing for North Africa. With supplies in North Africa being in such high demand due to the logistics of transporting everything across the Mediterranean, why would such a large number of captured stocks be transported back to Europe? Surely leaving captured stocks in North Africa would have been much more viable for reissue and use by troops already in this theatre.

                        I have no doubts that South Africa did indeed use these helmets (as you have shown) but I suggest that these helmets were initially manufactured in Holland for export. This isn't inconceivable considering the ties that would still have existed between the people of Holland and South Africa, a land largely settled by Dutch. With the overunning of Holland in 1940, this supply would have been stopped with a requirement to produce the helmets in South Africa.

                        Great discussion

                        Mark
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                          #27
                          Another of the many pics which I was able to find on the Australian War Memorial website of South African troops during WW2.
                          Attached Files

                          Comment

                            #28
                            Great pics, Mark !

                            Well, the stamp in the helmet says "Made in" and then there's the Pritoria stamp, otherwise it should've read made in Holland, no ..?

                            The only known Dutch maker of Pith helmets those days was Polak in Amsterdam and he made the model like on the drawing as far as I know and in white color.
                            They even stopped making them, because there was no market.

                            IF there was a batch of "African" helmets captured from Holland they were probably not dated.., only a Dutch maker mark IMO.

                            Well, we know that they're African, but we still don't know if they're Dutch .., I'm still curious what the real story is and would like to see a Breda made one..

                            Jos.

                            Comment

                              #29
                              Jos

                              It's gettin better now with Marks pictures
                              We also know these were in the hands of the Germans in April '41 in Germany before these troops arrived in Afrika. There were not too many SA forces even in Afrika in April '41, but these Piths with the German shields were not in Afrika till the Germans brought them there...of course the SA Forces brought their own to Afrika. British tankers in Afrika used them as early as 1940 as well.

                              Really need to see the makers mark on these examples used by the DAK.

                              Comment

                                #30
                                Well it could be that they all are of South African manufacture and not Dutch. Jos 's/ Mark's findings certainly now point in that direction for sure.

                                but no one seems to be saying much about the Dutch East Indies. The Dutch had colonies in the South Pacific which the Japanese invaded in 1941/42. There were Dutch soldiers garrisoned and fighting there who until 1940 had been supplied from Holland. What type of tropical helmet were they wearing at that time ?

                                After all, New Zealand was discovered by a Dutchman called Able Tasman in 1642 (after the Maoris, of course) and hence why he named it "Neu Zeelande" after his home place. The English never got here (NZ) until 1769 when Cook re-discovered the place but the Dutch were here long before them and had several colonies established.

                                Keep in mind also that that Boers in South Africa are of Dutch decent and funded by Dutch banks promoting Dutch companies. These Dutch companies would have set up and made their tropical sun hats in South Africa so this could well be the orgins of the South Africans soldiers using a dutch design of tropical helmet orginally made by branches or stand alones of Dutch companies in South Africa from a parent company based in Holland. Would be interesting to know when the South Africans first adopted that style of helmet.

                                The Germans in North Africa in 1941 - 43 may well have been using this type of helmet made both in Holland and South Africa. Some they got in 1940 in Holland and the South Africans kindly re-stocked them in 1942.

                                A 1943 dated South African made example of this style of helmet does not explain who made the examples which the German soldiers of Panzer Reg 8 & 15 were wearing at Easter 1941 just before they were sent to Afrika.

                                Of course this is just speculation on my part adding to what is proving to be a very interesting thread indeed but it could explain some of this,

                                Chris
                                Last edited by 90th Light; 09-10-2009, 05:31 AM.

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