H.G. Panzer Beret

[tgn]

I agree that we have beat this topic to death, unless some new information comes up like a period photo of this one being worn.

I have really enjoyed the back and forth discussion of the beret, the insignia, sewing techniques, etc. etc.

I am also not positive the beret is original. My "tenacious" input was only to spark discussion and see what we all could learn. I don't think the dissenters have given solid proof that this is fake, but we sure haven't proven it is original either.

I especially appreciate how this thread did not get down to name calling and personal attacks like many do.

I wish you all a very Happy New Year and look forward to spirited discussions in 2009!

Tom

[Chris]

I think what we have established is that while it is extraordinarily unlikely that this insignia is original to the period on this beret, it is not totally, mathematically impossible that there is some convoluted explanation for it being a non-standard outlier. This paradigm of finding a way to explain how something might possibly be original, in my view, is the exact opposite of the right collecting approach.

Happy New Year to All.

[ETN]

This paradigm of finding a way to explain how something might possibly be original, in my view, is the exact opposite of the right collecting approach.

In most cases I would agree with you, but when it comes to an item this exotic, I disagree. More research is needed before just dismissing this as a put together item. Developing theories of why this item can be authentic is fine, as long as we keep in mind that they are just theories and not fact.

I have seen no evidence presented so far that has convinced me one way or the other, it deserves further investigation.

[Chris]

As a collector, I'm not interested in theories of how something might be original, and I don't collect "variations." I look for a single molecule of lint in the wrong place which suggests it is not precisely the textbook example of what I expect to see, and if I find it, I walk away. In this case, the period photograph clearly establishes what one should look like. This piece is not even remotely similar, and I therefore would not own it if it were offered to me for free. I am satisfied with the results of my own personal collecting philosopy after 30 years, and I recommend it to others. However, for anyone whose collecting practices are otherwise, I wish them every happiness with their collections, and I wish you every success with your further investigations into this particular piece.

[Bob Hritz]

Is the roundel on this beret gray backed? It appears so to me.

Bob Hritz

[tgn]

Is the roundel on this beret gray backed? It appears so to me.

Bob Hritz

Looks like that to me. Why do you ask???

Tom

[Bob Hritz]

Tom,

Part of the debate is that there was alledgedly plenty of black backed Luftwaffe insignia available, at the time of the beret use. Why would there be a luft blue-gray roundel used? Is the eagle also blue-gray backed, but the blue obliterated by black zig-zag sewing?

I just don't know, but if someone had the beret, in the photo, there would still be a question about the use of the 'wrong color' roundel.

Bob Hritz

[Leroy]

The black ground crew sidecaps I mentioned did not use roundels. What I was trying to convey was that there would have been black-backed EAGLES available.

Here's one of the "mechanic's" caps for sale on estand now:

[W Petz]

In my opinion I believe there would have been black backed insignia (HG Cap Eagle with roundel) to match the beret issued to the HG Spahtrupp and not a mixed bag of standard LW insignia. Although I don't have any close up shots of the insignia I do have a few photos of the HG Spahtrupp in Training. These were in a large grouping of HG regiment photos I have in my collection. #1

[W Petz]

HG Spahtrupp #2

[W Petz]

HG Spahtrupp #3

[tgn]

In my opinion I believe there would have been black backed insignia (HG Cap Eagle with roundel) to match the beret issued to the HG Spahtrupp and not a mixed bag of standard LW insignia.

Well, I guess your opinion can not be correct because, as Bob pointed out, the roundel in the original portrait photo is gray backed, not a match to the eagle.

BTW, is there a black backed Luftwaffe roundel?

Tom

[W Petz]

That was not what Bob's comment was....he said it appears to be gray........Read page 275, Vol 2 of Uniforms & Traditions of the Luftwaffe for the answer on black backed national Tri colors i.e, roundel. There are photos of them in the preceding page (274)

Bill

Well, I guess your opinion can not be correct because, as Bob pointed out, the roundel in the original portrait photo is gray backed, not a match to the eagle.

BTW, is there a black backed Luftwaffe roundel?

Tom

[SgtB]

Tom,

Part of the debate is that there was alledgedly plenty of black backed Luftwaffe insignia available, at the time of the beret use. Why would there be a luft blue-gray roundel used? Is the eagle also blue-gray backed, but the blue obliterated by black zig-zag sewing?

I just don't know, but if someone had the beret, in the photo, there would still be a question about the use of the 'wrong color' roundel.

Bob Hritz

Yes, Bob, but to have used existing stocks of eagles and roundels, no matter what color they were, still makes sense to me, if the need to get the new panzer arm up and running in a hurry was a necessity (such as at Goerings insistance). But to have made a totally new type of insignia, only for this purpose that DID NOT match, makes no sense at all. So for me, the photos of LW machine-woven blue/grey-backed eagles on berets makes total sense while a one-off blue-backed eagle in bevo on a black beret makes absolutely no sense to me, and still smacks of 1970's 4th Reich IMO. As in a collector trying to find the "best fit" of badges for the piece before he sold it.

I hope all of this makes some sense as I've been drinking all day, with 3 bottles of EXCELLENT wine (2 Niagra, 1 Catawba) from a local vinyard ( I know the owner) in the last hour or so.
Remember, we have no clue wether that 2nd beret is kosher or not. Maybe it's badges are equally mystifying!

[Willi Z.]

I just don't know, but if someone had the beret, in the photo, there would still be a question about the use of the 'wrong color' roundel.

Bob,
An era (based on the timeframe the Luftwaffe would have used such a beret) style eagle and cockade (both either black or blue-gray) with era style unit markings and LBA stamp (again consistent with the "normal/ standard" practice at that time) would be a completely different matter in my opinion.

That might be a "one looker" to me and would no doubt be sold very quickly with a phone call.