H.G. Panzer Beret

[Willi Z.]

Which unit of the RGG had any armor before 1942?

I'll answer my own question. RGG was a regiment until July 1942 (4 Flak Abteilungen and a Wach Bataillon after 1938 until 1942) when it became Brigade HG. At that time the first HG Panzer Kompanie was formed (the 13th Kompanie of III./ Schützen Regiment HG). The HG Division was formed in late 1942/ early 1943. It wasn't until the spring of 1943 that they formed a Panzer Regiment and it only had 2 battalions.

So, who would have worn a beret before 1942? Where did the 3rd battalion come from?

1/ /Pz.R./III" - 1ST Kompanie/…./ Panzer Regt./ 3rd Battalion. The sweatband is marked size 55. Under the leather sweatband is stamped B II 40 (Luftwaffe depot marking and date).

Is "B II 40" a Luftwaffe depot marking?

[Glenn McInnes]

The B II 40/39 etc marking I have seen several times marked in Heer jackets/hats...Don't recall seeing it in any Luft items before,but I could be mistaken.


Some say these markings are from a secondary depot.



Glenn

[Willi Z.]

The B II 40/39 etc marking I have seen several times marked in Heer jackets/hats...Don't recall seeing it in any Luft items before,but I could be mistaken.
Glenn

Exactly Glenn. Pre/ early war Luftwaffe uniform/ equipment items were usually marked with something like a "LBA (S) 39". Just an example....

[Glenn McInnes]

I guess you have to ask yourself,if these Heer berets were issued to Luft Panzer would the insignia be tightly zig zag sewn (and over done,IMO) to copy that commonly seen on Luft factory produced items.Somehow I doubt it.



Glenn

[Chad1]

pros and cons

It's already been pointed out that 1) it wasn't until 1942 that the Regiment General Goring was expanded and renamed, for the first time carrying the name Hermann Goring Brigade, 2) it was a FLAK regiment, and while considered elite, I'm not certain they had armor.

So, that's against the beret.

However, when the HG Brigade was expanded into the HG Panzer Division, a core of Heer Panzer men were incorporated into the division as a nucleus around which the armored personnel was trained. There a numerous photographs of some of these guys stubbornly wearing their Heer wrapper tunics with Heer insignia along with Luftwaffe headgear, or some other combination of mixed service insignia.

So, with that, perhaps one of them still kept his beret and switched the insignia, perhaps even after the style was discontinued from regular use.

Perhaps the markings on the interior are artifacts to the owners prior service and not necessarily "HG" markings?

I'm not sure if I'd lay out bucks on this beret as I'm sure it would be a small fortune, not to mention the difficulty in convincing others of it's authenticity, but it's at least concievable.

[Richard P]

I've always understood the B II 40 markings to be a depot Berlin, clothing grade wear rate of II, I being the best dress, on down through grade IV. The date being 1940...but I only picked that up in a book, so it may just be conjecture and not factual at all. I have not seen these markings in Luft. items.

I'm sort of assuming that this was an army beret first...I was mainly curious about the Luft eagle and its usage that is known by the Luft insignia guys.

Thanks for all the opinions, I am in agreement with most, I do think it is an KM cockade to keep with the dark blue background theme of the eagle. The big question is the eagle itself, when was it done, and how can we establish that. Most likely we can not, and then we have to take the berets known collector history into consideration.

Richard

[billbert]

Quite certain the earliest of RGG would have been outsourced from the same sources as army so I believe this is why there are army..pre war early war I also beleive they only had armor car recon/ and MAYBE light anks.. RGG HG book has nice late 30 s foto of same...Billbert
probably only a few dozen of these EVER in existance...

[Bob Hritz]

I would agree that the rare Luftwaffe berets started life as Heer berets. So far, I see nothing that would lead me to believe this is anything but a Luft RGG beret.

Bob Hritz

[tgn]

I would agree that the rare Luftwaffe berets started life as Heer berets. So far, I see nothing that would lead me to believe this is anything but a Luft RGG beret.

Bob Hritz

ALL berets, Heer, Luftwaffe and SS, started life as Heer berets.

I'll try to get the dates down to tell the true history of this beret since it walked into a show years ago.

Tom

[Willi Z.]

So, these berets would have been depot marked, issued (they did not come from the factory with unit markings) to Heer units and unit marked, then withdrawn from those units (without striking out the Heer Panzer unit marking) and reissued to a RGG unit at a time when the RGG units marked their uniform (caps, tunics, etc) items and the entire Wehrmacht was anal about unit markings?


Again, which RGG unit had armored vehicles before 1942?

[N.C. Wyeth]

Quite certain the earliest of RGG would have been outsourced from the same sources as army so I believe this is why there are army..pre war early war I also beleive they only had armor car recon/ and MAYBE light anks.. RGG HG book has nice late 30 s foto of same...Billbert
probably only a few dozen of these EVER in existance...

I saw this beret at the last OVMS show - in a nutshell, this is the same basic explanation I was given about the cap. I am not a beret fellow, and the Luftwaffe really leaves me cold, but I must say that this beret was pretty inspiring to touch and see . . . and it did come from a reputedly very well known and prominent old collection. Just my two-cents . . .

Brad

[Mike Bollow]

Out of my league!

[tgn]

This beret was brought into a Greenbelt Show in the mid 70's. It came with a green Sturmgeschütz beret that was on a black base. Both berets were purchased by the same tableholder, who later re-sold them. The Luftwaffe beret has been in the same collection since the 80's, and only re-surfaced when that collector recently died. That is the whole story on how it came into the collecting realm. There are many collectors still around who were there when they showed up and can substantiate this series of events.

As for the Luftwaffe even wearing a beret, read Brian Davis, Uniforms and Insignia of the Luftwaffe, Volume 2; 1940-1945", page 145: "The headdress worn with the special uniform varied. As early as April 1938, members of the Panzer-Späh-Zug from the Regiment "General Göring" were issued the black Panzer Beret with Luftwaffe insignia. This type of head-dress was discontinued in January 1941." I believe the Panzer-Späh-Zug unit was an armored cars unit.

The eagle insignia on this beret is unique. I have neve seen another like it. If you were going to fake this, it would have been a lot easier to use a standard Luftwaffe embroidered eagle on black, which are not exactly uncommon.

I also do not like the heavy stiching on the insignia, but so what. My druthers are not always the way things were sometimes originally done. The heavy stiching neither proves nor disproves the originality of this beret.

Tom

[Mike Bollow]

Tom -

Blagojevich needs you on his defense team!!

In all seriousness, everything you said makes sense. This is a wierd piece and these are what makes the hobby INTERESTING.

MB

[Richard P]

Tom,

Since you have seen this in the flesh, or cloth so to speak...is the eagle smaller than a breast eagle of that same style? Is it the same style as a larger breast eagle? I had about fifty varieties of Luft breast eagles, but that was 30 years ago, so they are rather dim in my memory now.

Richard