General's M43 Cap

[Lenny W]

Thanks for the advice. I'm working on the refund. It looks like I opened a can of worms. I would like to know why this cap is BS. I didn't feel good with it but I got it from someone I some what trust. This is why I stay away from cloth and medals.

construction,buttons,bias material,fake insignia,etc,etc good luck

[Rick C]

Gentlemen,

I don’t doubt that your experience is vast & your conclusions likely correct, but the nature of a forum is the exchange of ‘information’ not just a compendium of (pulling a number out of the air) 30,000 threads having 150,000 responses, many of which are opinion or unsubstantiated (though possibly correct) conclusions. As ApathyL points out, these short pronouncements of ‘fact’ are “no help to new collectors.…“ or those of us trying to do our research to further ‘learn’ a subject. This venue is a “forum”. The Princeton dictionary defines a ‘forum’ as a “public meeting” or “assembly for open discussion”. “Discussion” is defined as “exchanging information”.

Frustrating to me (no offense intended and NOT directed at anyone in particular) are the forum oracles that throw opinions out with zero (actual) data to back up their claims nor, even a reference to what they are 'seeing' that may concern them about a particular item. Back in my college days, were a student asked for his/her thoughts on a subject being discussed or debated and were they to merely relate how they ‘felt’, the professor would dismiss these types of unsubstantiated comments as completely unresponsive and self serving. In my view. if one can't back up one's assertions with some type of empirical evidence, one shouldn't say anything.

The “IMO”, the “not for my collection”, the “I could ‘entertain’ doubts” and other such useless banter benefits us, as a community, not one bit, since those of us who are here trying to hone our observation skills, learn what to look for, identify ‘tells’ that are all important to our future investments or increase our knowledge of the manufacturing characteristics of certain makers of militaria gain nothing by them. While many people viewing this forum are knowledgeable and some who participate by commenting on an item clearly have a great deal of experience & information at their fingertips (thank you for sharing, by the way), there are quite a few who appear more interested in hearing themselves talk (or seeing themselves ‘post’) without imparting any useful data or observations. Does anyone think there’s a prize at the end of the subscription year for the number of ‘one liner’ posts they make?

For those posting the one liners or one word comments, for your edification, most of us have no ‘personal knowledge’ of your vast experience or wisdom relating to the item in question thus, your assertions are taken with the equivalent value of attending an Obama rally where we’re expected to “believe” & “hope” without any definitive reason. You might be an experienced thirty year collector having visited Germany and interviewed scores of factory workers to garner your credentials and knowledge or you could be a forty year old, bored & lonely keyboard warrior living in his parent’s basement owning a few black wound badges - how are we to know unless you share the basis upon which you make your claims?

The fact is, these unsubstantiated ‘opinions’ offer nothing to the goal of analysis of a specific piece of militaria or the discourse thereof. Reading these types of posts is like listening to an hour of sound bites from politicians filling the airwaves with talk but saying nothing of value to ‘thinking people’.

If posters have no data to relate or articulate observations to share and are only willing to make bland and unsubstantiated statements having no evidence to back up their conclusions, with all due respect, run for political office rather than taking up Bianchi’s bandwidth. We’re here (or should be) to gain knowledge. If Sabastian deleted/eliminated the the posts stating simply ”IMO” or “fake” or similar unsubstantiated offerings of opinion without any analysis behind them, then perhaps using the search function (as Lenny W advises) to query a subject matter wouldn’t be such a tedious & often fruitless or pyrrhic adventure.

BenVK relates his SOP above: “I will will ask them by pm or email why because even though I know I have experience, I am still learning and I'm still really interested to learn more.” GD/LW responds: “I didn't know you had to PM to know why it isn't good. I'll do that next time.” Need every new member or association member seeking enlightenment on a particular subject use the PM function to get answers? If so, then folks should stop saying to use the Search function to ‘study’ the subject. Perhaps Sabastian should just list those members having perceived significant expertise in a subject such as cloth headgear such as BenVK, NZT, Stonemint, etc. with their email addresses so the collector world can simply PM them daily on all their questions rather than using a venue (such as this forum) to search out posted ‘analysis’ on subjects of interest. While an occasional PM from a member having specific questions relating to an area, that his/her ‘research’ demonstrates another member may be an articulate contributor on may be welcome, I hardly think that these experienced collectors wish to have the precedent set that every Tom, Dick & Harry on the planet fill their boxes with private messages to ascertain (again and again, over and over) what the common button suppliers were during the Third Reich period and could they share images of the proper markings on said buttons. Again, that’s what this forum is supposed to provide us.

No offense people, but I, for one, don’t give a smoking rat’s ass about ‘feelings’ or opinions with nothing to back them up when I’m researching an investment or piece of history. I’m looking for facts. Pronouncements that are expected to be taken on faith are best left in church or political rallies. Rick C.

[RUHL13]

Finally, a responce worth reading!!!
The one liners have no meaning to the collecting community.
I will admit though, NTZ and Stonemint most always go into detail "why" its no good, "most" others just follow.
Fakers don't need a forum to help them out, theres plenty of other info out there.
We are here, or supose to be here to help....this is not the case anymore.
Why have so many left?
Simple.....read Ricks C's post.

[BenVK]

Rick, some good points and eloquently put.
With M43 caps, you have to handle them to be sure. Unless they are quite obviously copies as some are. Most aren't though and the only conclusion you can hope for from looking at photos is whether (based on your own experience from handling real and fake ones over a period of time) the cap "looks" to have a good shot at being authentic or not.
The correct answer to most M43 threads in particular should be "could be real or not, can't say without handling it". However, if we all did that, it would lead to a very dull forum don't you think? I've got no problem with guys saying "not for my collection" or "I have doubts". At least it shows that they've taken time out of their busy lives to look at the item and form an opinion about it. You want facts and I understand what you're saying but the truth is that very often, there will be nothing to see in a photo that you can point to and say, see, the button hole stitching is wrong or that cloth is incorrect. Handling cloth items is all about the "feel". Something can be totally correct in construction yet still doesn't feel right. The problem is that you obviously can't touch the things on the forum so all you have is that subconscious connection between your eyes, your brain, your memory, your gut and a million other things that I can't even explain that somehow all come together to make a judgement on what your looking at. It's not about facts, it's intuition maybe? intuition based on experience and a bit of knowledge? I don't know really, it's impossible to explain which is why it can be so frustrating when you're just starting out because it's seems that everybody can see something you can't.
As for the whole pm or email to get the answers issue. It's simple really. Not sure about anyone else but I haven't got the time to go into a lengthy explanation of my opinion every time I look at something. But, if someone takes the time to write to me, I will try and find the time to write back. It's just common courtesy plus it's nice when guys take a genuine interest and not just wanting to know if they've done well out of a deal or not.

[Rick C]

Ben,

I appreciate your response & thank you for not taking my little diatribe as any form of personal attack (which it was not). We New Englanders are a mouthy bunch & are often taken the wrong way when we actually mean well. In the present case I bitch because (selfishly) I want this forum to be useful to folks like me (as a research tool) rather than a waste of time sifting through a bunch of baloney looking for a few pearls of wisdom or gems of knowledge.

Clearly, based upon the comments of a few herein I see that the original poster is going to return this cap. I’ve PMed him in this regard.

Being a dumb Irish lad from the hills (only owning one black wound badge), what’s interesting (to me) is that, in their haste to blow this thing out of the water, no one’s even IDed this cap correctly. From what I can see the cap isn’t an M43 at all. It’s a Mountain Bergmutze showing the shorter brim/peak indicative of that style. Also, the vent grommets (looking enameled & not painted) would be, again, indicative of the Bergmutze and NOT the M43. It’s style is representative of private purchase manufacture between ‘41 & early ’43 which fits with the white ‘T-form’ insignia. The Eldeweis is backed in Austrian green and appears correctly applied to the cap. The buttons, while generic, clearly appear to be fire gilded rather than painted (another good sign). Finally, let’s not forget to note the end of the cloth bolt material beside the buttons - the utilization of which is far more indicative of period cheap assed (use everything) German mindset than contemporary fakers. One could go on with observations that do NOT reflect (‘IMO’) a fake but there’s little point. The discussion/analysis appears closed - it's "100% fake".

[Diane]

Heer Bergmütze

This is a nice example of an early Heer Bergmuetze - NOT an "M-43". The "T-Form" insignia, vent grommets and short bill clearly indicate that.

The material of the cap is high quality and Rick's comment about noting "the end of the cloth bolt material beside the buttons - the utilization of which is far more indicative of period cheap (use everything) German mindset than contemporary fakers" is an excellent point.

Another couple of things to look for on these caps is:

1. Does the cap have an interior front stiffener? It could be buckram, or reinforced cloth with a metal wire core.

2. Does it have an internal reinforcement - like a 2 cm wide cloth or buckram band around the base of the cap? Use your fingers and feel for this.

What is kind of appalling is that no one identified this cap for what it is (save Rick) - a Bergmuetze, not an "M-43"!

If this cap were offered to me I would certainly consider buying it (after a hands on examination).

MfG,

Diane Schreiber

[anejo]

gen m43 cap

No stiffener or internal reinforcement. The bill feels like flat cardbord

[BenVK]

Ben,
I appreciate your response & thank you for not taking my little diatribe as any form of personal attack (which it was not).

One could go on with observations that do NOT reflect (‘IMO’) a fake but there’s little point. The discussion/analysis appears closed - it's "100% fake".

No problem Rick, I knew you weren't having a dig at me. Actualy, I really enjoyed your post. Very interesting and well written.

As for the analysis being closed, why would that be? It's only just begun by the looks of it.

[B. N. Singer]

Gentlemen,........................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .........................................No offense people, but I, for one, don’t give a smoking rat’s ass about ‘feelings’ or opinions with nothing to back them up when I’m researching an investment or piece of history. I’m looking for facts. Pronouncements that are expected to be taken on faith are best left in church or political rallies. Rick C.

I could give a camel's hump if anyone finds benefit to my (or othger's) limited posts; but I would wager that when it's your item and certain people on this forum generously choose to give warnings about entertaining a doubt, many will give pause to think.

B. N. Singer
PS Hi Ben!!

[Diane]

Not a good sign . . .

Hi,

No stiffener or internal reinforcement.

This is not a good sign, but a proper determination cannot be made until the cap is examined in hand.

MfG,

Diane

[kirk]

Modern repro.IMO.

[bnz. 42]

Frustrating to me (no offense intended and NOT directed at anyone in particular) are the forum oracles that throw opinions out with zero (actual) data to back up their claims nor, even a reference to what they are 'seeing' that may concern them about a particular item.
.....
In my view. if one can't back up one's assertions with some type of empirical evidence, one shouldn't say anything.

Rick, wow, are you serious? A lazy member, who does not want to spend his time to research and learn about his piece (Internet and this Forum is a huge library of data almost on any subject!) asks us for help/opinion (btw free) and what? - he expects full and detailed explanation, maybe also supported with all possible references and graphics? why in the world? just because he is lazy?

[Rick C]

Can understand your position if primarily if looked at from the standpoint of a specific member. If someone asked me "real/fake/value?" with little or no input or history I might feel the same way. Do some homework & let's talk specifics...

I don't know this guy from a hole in the ground so I'm not going to defend 'him' rather I'm trying to speak to the functionality of this forum. I search out postings on General related stuff, I find this post - pretty pictures but no real data to 'learn from'. Multiply that result by ten posts I have time to investigate before my wife catches me on the WAF or my daughter decides to stab one of the dogs with my SS Dagen she just took off my wall. I shut off my computer & go drink some beer because what have I learned in all that poking around? Zip. So really, you're not depriving the (perhaps) lazy member of information, your depriving me x 1,000 members of a valuable learning experience who ARE seeking data.

These images are an opportunity for all of us. Lets make the most of them to share some amount of data that we may have picked up with "the community" not just the guy/girl asking the goofy question.

A recent example was a bit of a quest to gain insight on the 5th Don Cossack Cross. I searched all over hell's creation for information. This forum had numerous threads (read em), went to the web (zip), to the reference books (conflicting data from one edition to the next). Posted a thread to attempt to 'engage' people to share hard data they may have (http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ht=don+cossack) & got, essentially nowhere beyond "this one's real - this one's not." So the research, the investigation, the posting of images yields zip. Freaking frustrating.

All I'm saying is when you choose to go beyond lurking & post an opinion, your NOT just helping (or not) the thread initiator (who may be green or may be a goofball), your potentially helping all of us (in OUR research) so I would hope that folks would look at it as a community of researchers rather than a private club of 'insiders' who either won't share detailed information or merely think their coming forth with a pronouncement of authenticity (or not) is all the masses are worthy of.

Rick C.

[billbert]

Ditto Herr Singer.. hi Ben also..Billbert

[anejo]

gen m43 cap

Just to let everyone know, I traded with some one I some what trusted. I don't collect cloth items or medals. I was just looking for a yea or nay. It looked good to me as I have held caps I know to be original before. At the time I acquired this item I didn't have access to any reference material. That being said I appreciate all the response. I got this cap from the same person I got the sd armband (another post) so I should have known.