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    #16
    Panzer officer cap

    Ok, as promised a few more pics to help with the final opinions. Also I've gone over all the details in Gary Wilkins book on cloth headgear regarding this type of cap and it does seem to fit the bill. The cockade is not the thick, 3D, hand embroidered type but I have seen period photod that have the machined type like mine. The eagle I am having difficulty making a final decision on. I don't own any examples to compare it to so I'm going by photos. In some light it appears to be silver bevo (it does sparkle) yet it is not as brilliant at the silver in the cockade or the piping. In other light, it appears that it could be white? The sweatband in the forehead area is present and marked but it appears to be a simulated leather. I believe this was used but I am not sure. After reading Wilkins book my gut feeling is that this is a good cap, but I'm not an expert.

    Brian it doesn't smell new. It has that musty wool smell that I experienced so well in the military museums in France and Belgium. It's not overwhehlming, but it's there.

    Scott the soutache is at the 90 degrees as the new pics will show. The grommets are black painted, the other color is the brass showing through. The inside view of the grommet appears to meet the description in Wilkins book. I'm not sire about the size but in Wades book I noticed some size variations in his examples?

    Something I should probably mention is that this cap if difficult to keep open when you try to display it. By this I mean that when you set it down on its bottom edges, it wants to close itself back up. My observation on this leads me to believe it was stored flat for a long time somewhere. Probably put away and not in a collection. Therefore not unlikely that it could be so mint.

    If this is a repro, it's very good quality. Does anyone know of any repros being made with this type of quality?

    Thanks in advance for your replies.

    John
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      #17
      Panzer officer cap

      more pics
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        #18
        Boy, I dunno, John...

        ...If it's bad it is very well made and convincing. Must be from the latest round
        of fakes. I assume that if you obtained it from Herr Winkler, you have an
        airtight guarantee. You could just keep it and enjoy it right now until
        they start popping up all over the place. Or you could send it back.

        The eagle does bother me a bit. I've never had or seen one with the tight
        waist or flat head like this one. And the short lower wing feathers seem a
        little too blocky, too.

        Also, you would think the brass on the grommets would be a little more
        black from time. Still, materials often age differently due to different
        conditions.

        Sorry I can't be of more help, John. If you paid the going rate for a minty
        original Panzer Officer's OS cap, and I'm sure you did - then you should
        be satisfied and secure. Are you?


        Please don't do anything based on my opinions alone. There are far more
        experienced fieldcap collector's here...

        Comment

          #19
          I see nothing wrong with the cap---but I got burned something good by a dealer out of Europe on a Panzer officer's cap so look out, good fakes are out there.

          I just got done checking out Kai Winkler's site. Man, that guy has a lot of stuff for reasonable prices--almost too reasonable. When I see $1000 for a Panzer officer from Herr Winkler and a similar hat from Peter Whamond (a dealer I feel VERY confident about) for more than twice as much--I don't know, something is amiss.

          Also, Gary Wilkins book is an excellent reference, however, he has very limited material on black panzers and not a single example of a black panzer officer caps (a single book can't cover it all, after all)--you may want to check out books like

          Krawczyk, W. 2001. Army Panzer Uniforms in Colour Photographs. The Croword Press, Ramsbury, UK.

          or

          Edwards, R.J. and M.H. Pruett. 1998. Field uniforms of Germany's Panzer Elite. JJ Fedorowicz Publishing Inc, Winnepeg, Canada.

          or

          Pruett, M.H. and R.J. Edwards. 1993. Field uniforms of Germany Army Panzer Forces in World War 2. JJ Fedorowicz Publishing Inc, Winnepeg, Canada.

          It was through reading these that I "uncovered" my mistaken purchase and then steered myself correctly, expensively and humbly (through a trusted dealer) toward a more common enlisted man's panzer cap.

          I hope your panzer is real, and it just may be, but I thought I'd relate to you my experiences...

          Comment

            #20
            John,

            Difficult one, a hung jury!

            I enjoy these items and have a few about me, none however are the same as yours, therefore I am unable to contribute from a position of strength. I would merely be regurgitating that documented in reference books.

            Like a lot in this field, most of it now comes down to your personal handling and judgement. Obviously the more items you handle the more adept you become, however that can be an expensive learning curve, especially in the panzer arena.

            Your main aim is to acquire an item that you know 110% is the real McCoy. Everything else is 2nd to that goal.

            Have attached a WSS officers sidecap (panzer). Pink soutache appears artillery red, but rest assured it is pink in the flesh. It is the nearest I have that comes close to the original post.

            Hope it helps.

            Billy
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              #21
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                #22
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                  #23
                  4.
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                    #24
                    John,

                    NCO panzer sidecap. Different style insignia, again it is not as white as it looks on the screen.
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                      #25
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                        #26
                        The soutache on the WSS piece is more the Rosa pink of the visor.

                        Billy
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                          #27
                          John:
                          Thanks for the extra photos. I wish I could give you a real firm opinion on this one. It is - technically - very nicely done. But my gut says it is a high quality repro. Obviously I could be wrong. Unfortunately, there is nothing akin to dye makere like badges when it comes to cloth.

                          My gut feel is based on the following curiosities...and again...I could be very wrong:

                          I am used to seeing a much thinner cap piping of that which is exposed to view (the remained of the piping and method of attachment looks correct).

                          Have already commented on what I see as an overly obvious/heavily accentuated zig-zag sewing of the eagle - but not the roundel (are both in silver wire BeVo?). Could be the roundel at one point was the 3-D style and replaced with this flat BeVo style...but in any case, I think "zig-zag" has become a collector exaggeration and thus, forgers have gone overboard in their efforts to cater to what they think will give us collectors instantaneous gratification. This just looks like a case of that to me.

                          I find the single loop of thread atop the turn up in the front an oddity and not necessary...again, kind of like ly last comment regarding zig-zagging. Many, many officer caps do not have this. In fact, it is not an inspection point I ever look for. So when I see it, it makes me wonder.

                          The interior black lining looks crisp...as does the size stamp. I know it is a mint cap...but the black linings I am familiar with look soft to the eye. This looks like starched linnen. Black was certainly used, but is excessively used by forgers. So, when I see it, my curiosity becomes highly aroused. Some will have problems with the grommets (not splayed out). have seen this style (inside view) on original privately made caps. That does not bother me much at all...however, the two toned color is unusual.

                          Already commented on the stiff look/coarseness of the cap material from the photo. The black cloth used in Panzer items remained a higher quality for the most part throughout the war.

                          Lastly, the leather partial sweat band in the front...brown is OK...I would prefer a gray or greenish-gray.

                          I do not know if this helps. I always hate it when someone doubts my stuff...so, I offer this only as an opinion. If you are happy with it that is what matters...and I cannot make a stronger opinionated statement except to saythat had it been offered to me (and I did see it on kai's site), I would have passed it up...maybe to my loss.
                          CSP


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