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    #1

    Panzer officer side cap

    Hi all,

    Just received this cap from Kai Winkler. It looked really good on his web site but it was even better when I got it. It's definately mint! I'm very pleased with it but would like some feedback. I noticed Peter Whammond has one on his site too but it's a bit different. Are the differences due to manufacturer variations, or time of manufacture, or what?

    Thanks
    John Klein
    Tags: None
    #2
    Panzer officer cap

    more pics...
    Attached Files

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      #3
      Panzer officer side cap

      last pics...
      Attached Files

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        #4
        Hi John,
        he got another one in his website, my question: did he produce them? The new one is nicer than yours (it's almost difficult to do that )....
        What do you think about the lining and grommets? All correct?
        Cheers
        Teka

        Comment

          #5
          Be carefull here,,,especialy when there seems to allways be a nice example for sale when another goes out the door..

          Comment

            #6
            Panzer officer sidecap

            Teka thanks for pointing that out. Now you've got me worried. Actually the fact that another nice one became available right-a-way doesn't worry me so much (at least not in this case). The new listing is a bit different (different eagle and cocade). My understanding is that Kai Winkler is known for being one of the biggest advertisers of buying militaria in Germany. This along with the reality that we are loosing so many vets a day now means more items are going to be coming available. Plus if he had bought an entire collection from somebody, this would not be unusual. But, as you mention Perry, I still need to exercise caution. That is why I have posted the cap here for opinions. I want to be sure the details are all correct. Mint pieces always worry me a bit.

            The only reference book I have compared it to so far is Wades Panzer uniform book. Unfortunately there is not an exact match to compare it to. The closest one in his book matches the one currently on Peter Whammonds site. Also the ones in his book all have the heavier cocade, not the flat one on the diamond shaped background like mine. The difference in the cockade is actually one of the things that concerns me. Also my soutache is the narrower, tighter style.

            Thanks
            John
            Last edited by WWIIBuff; 09-22-2003, 12:43 PM.

            Comment

              #7
              Well this is my opinion on it since your asking...
              I dont know these caps (unless it obviously bad), and if I dont know something I would not buy it from a source such as that...
              This is a collector standard as some have no problem with it and some do, its your decision on what you accept..

              Comment

                #8
                hat

                I think you need to post additional pictures in order to get opinions on the hat. Side view, view of the vents inside and outside, close ups of the interior, flaps turned down, close up of the silver cord from the inside of the flap, etc. There is too little information to work with on this IMHO. It is just dificult to make a judgement from pictures on field hats

                In hand inspection, I still think, is the only way to tell and that will have to be done by someone who knows enough about these.....
                I love the beach.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Originally posted by JOHNK
                  Also my soutache is the narrower, tighter style.

                  Thanks
                  John

                  And pink too! Do you think maybe that's why they're called c*nt caps?

                  How does it smell?

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Brian, I don't think the Germans called them that... That wuz us!

                    Don

                    Comment

                      #11
                      John:
                      Another Panzer collector's opinion here - sorry if I get long winded...it is just an opinion - which you sought by your thread. This one does not jump out at me as an original mint Panzer officer's cap the way I would like it to. It conforms in many ways, but there are some nuances that leave me a bit uncertain...would need to see the grommets closer (inside) - they look a bit small to me and the paint looks two colored - the angle of the soutache looks less than the regualtion 90 degrees for a cap thatgives the impression of a concerted effort to conform to standard issue specs. Mint aside, the material from the scans looks an awful lot like that used on modern day Panzer wrap repros - a very convincing material to the eye but usually given away by the stiffness of the nap, the feel and smell (hard to verbalize the latter). I am left with the impression somewhat that it does not seem 60 year old "mint"... almost too crisp. The insignia materials could in fact be period. The eagle is sewn on "oh-so exactly" with a zig-zag stitch (waaaay overrated as a sign of a period sewn piece), yet the roundel is comparatively sloppily done and with a straight stitch...why? The sheen of the soutache is something that I would not expect to see so much after 60 years...but could be the photos...and as already noted the angle looks less than 90 degrees and the level the ends pass in to the fold looks to be done a bit high. In general...on a cap like this, I like to see things line up better as I have described. Does the sweat liner have any impressed maker markings? I like that it has the double row of lines impressed in to it and a mark is by no means required. I know these sound knit-picky and they are, but something like this is very, very scarce...and if you were looking to buy a Mercedes and you saw enough things that looked like quality-control oversights, you might begin to think you were not looking at a real Mercedes. I know there are many variations - and I know I may be absolutely wrong on this cap by just looking at pictures posted - but authentic pieces, no matter the varaiations, do not require much explanation...they seem logical.

                      My last comments if you will indulge them is regarding Kai Winkler. Like any dealer, he does not personally look at every piece on his listing. He has staff to do a lot of this...some may be collectors in their own right...but they are employees nonetheless. I have seen dealers with the absolute best reputations make the mistake of not checking on the staff and passing on something that otherwise would not have slipped through the crack. Kai makes mistakes like we all do...as does his staff. In saying this I am not insinuating any malice of forethought on his or their parts. These (large volume) dealers cannot possibly be correct on the wide range of items they carry. I used to collect all Heer - anything Heer. I fond I was so braod in my collecting that I was buying some bad stuff based on little depth of knowledge. Gave that up years ago and only focus on two areas now.

                      What do you think of my input? Fair or way off the mark?
                      CSP


                      sigpic

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                        #12
                        Panzer officer sidecap

                        Hi Guys,

                        Thanks for the feedback. I've not been able to find any good reference photos so your opinions are very much appreciated. Marty thanks for the suggestion about additional photos. I'll take some this weekend of the areas you mentioned and post them.

                        Scott thanks for your input also. Your opinion was great and greatly appreciated as always, not to mention being right on the mark. I'm still a beginner so I trying to get more focused with my collecting like you did, as well as trying not to buy things on emotion rather than education. This particular piece I just took a real liking to and I broke the rules and bought it too quick. As I mentioned above I'll post more pics so please check back in a few days to complete your diagnosis.

                        Brian, hadn't heard that name before but it certainly fits - the "name" I mean.

                        John

                        Comment

                          #13
                          How does the cap smell, John?

                          Put your face in it and take a long,deep snort. If that cap has been in
                          storage for most of the last 60 years it will have that unmistakeable
                          musty 'antique' smell. This alone can answer all of your questions.
                          If it has been on display in a collection most of the time it should just
                          smell rather neutral. But if it smells at all new, well...

                          I tend to agree with Scott. My first impression was that it is a very
                          nice looking cap but there are several, albeit tiny, red flags waving
                          around there.

                          The smell-test should never be discounted. I've done it at shows, and
                          others have looked at me like I'm nuts, but hey - it works!

                          Comment

                            #14
                            "These caps are rare" !? On a lighter note, I saw exactly nine of them on one dealer's table at this year's MAX that were in near mint to mint condition. Maybe Chris Devine and Kai Winkler have the same source?

                            Dylan

                            Comment

                              #15
                              :d :d :d :d

                              Comment

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