Georg Kurz Maker or Distributor of Caps

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Recently, colleague Giorgio and I went either side of the fence regarding a Georg Kurz marked cap I have that I believe to be a Clemens Wagner manufacturer cap.

From the previous thread, Giorgio said the following two points:

Yes, Georg Kurz is also a distributor , and you understand this when you find it along others marks, as you see in your pic, without the classic logo that "looks like" the CW one, but it' s not a CW (completely different)
Gary Wilkins, in his book, says that was in business from 1931.......(pag 291) of course IMHO...
Regards
BTW the Georg Kurz caps haven't any of the classic features of CW caps........
Giorgio

Hi sturmbannfuhrer,
(first of all really beautiful cap), but sorry I desagree with you.
You're right about the Wilkins's book......but if he did deep researches at Braunschweig job bureau I think they are valid, then and now.......
For me a CW must have the CW features and the Kurz caps don't have any...........
I think that what it seems the CW letters have nothing to do with Clemens Wagner.
You're right as well about the several CW logos but I've never seen this mark clearly associated with CW mark......

Of course, always IMHO...........
Regards
Giorgio

After a little additional research, I have come up with the following evidence to show that Kurz was indeed a distributor ONLY of Clemens Wagner cap's.

I submit three pictures. Two of which I believe to be Clemens Wagner distributor marked caps. The look and markings are generic to add in the CW distributor outlet name, the third one is clearly an Erel, distributor marked for Kurz.

I'll stake my rep (small) on CW being the maker of the first two, what do you guys think. I have a Kurz marked cap that I believe to be CW manufactured, I just want to nail it once and for all.


I am adding a poll, please add your views and click on a choice

J T

1st cap, distributor marked "Spezialhaus Globus"

[sturmbannfuhrer]

second cap - I believe to be a CW kurz distributor cap

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Kurz erel distributor (without question)

[giorgio]

Hi everyone, Hi sturmbannfuhrer.....
The last pic: for sure is a cap "made" by ErEL and distributed by Kurz, as a matter of fact tha cap shows the ErEl features.
The pic posted by NTZ in the original thread: for sure is a cap "made" by CW distributed by Kurz, tha cap has the the CW features.
The above pics: the caps are "made" by Kurz........they don't show any of the typical features of CW or ErEl............
Warmest regards
Giorgio

[stonemint]

Just based on the lack of physical evidence alone, I am 100% sure they were only an Effekten Distributor, and not a maker. Without going through my files, all I can recall off the top of my head is Erel and CW, but they may have disrtributed other caps.

[solo]

Hi,for my knowlege (wery little) I'm with Giorgio.
The features of the first two are complitely different from the CW known by me.The sweatband end the way of stitcin in the back is not a CW feature,the lining and how it is put is not the regurar for CW.
I know CW had a lot of logos, in my files I've many different,I have some hats different quality made but the features are alwais the same.
I woul like to see a CW hat with the same features are on the first two.

Sorry if in the next days I will not reply ,but I have a plane to US from 4 hours.I'll be back from holidays on the 29 of Agost.
I hope you will have good holidays too.

All the best
Carlo

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Hi everyone, Hi sturmbannfuhrer.....
The last pic: for sure is a cap "made" by ErEL and distributed by Kurz, as a matter of fact tha cap shows the ErEl features.
The pic posted by NTZ in the original thread: for sure is a cap "made" by CW distributed by Kurz, tha cap has the the CW features.
The above pics: the caps are "made" by Kurz........they don't show any of the typical features of CW or ErEl............
Warmest regards
Giorgio

Hi,for my knowlege (wery little) I'm with Giorgio.
The features of the first two are complitely different from the CW known by me.The sweatband end the way of stitcin in the back is not a CW feature,the lining and how it is put is not the regurar for CW.
I know CW had a lot of logos, in my files I've many different,I have some hats different quality made but the features are alwais the same.
I woul like to see a CW hat with the same features are on the first two.

Sorry if in the next days I will not reply ,but I have a plane to US from 4 hours.I'll be back from holidays on the 29 of Agost.
I hope you will have good holidays too.

All the best
Carlo

There is so much information available on the WAF that i have located another Wagner, that really seals the deal for me.

Behold, a fully marked Clemens Wagner with distributor mark and the same sweatband as the type in the disputed visors I posted previously.

Here's one for Giorgio and Carlo to inspect, like to hear your views on this one gents and how this one affects your views on Clemens Wagner as you know them, because this visor shows the Kurz and Globus marked caps to be of Clemens Wagner manufacture.

As there are two threads to this view, I have posted this on each

J T

[giorgio]

Hi,
no sorry, the last cap brings the name of Arno Bauer Plauen.....we can't say if it was a maker under license of CW.......
CW has his own typical features.....that's all....
Of course IMHO.........
I'll never buy a Kurz paying it like a CW......
Warmest regards
Giorgio

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Hi,
no sorry, the last cap brings the name of Arno Bauer Plauen.....we can't say if it was a maker under license of CW.......
CW has his own typical features.....that's all....
Of course IMHO.........
I'll never buy a Kurz paying it like a CW......
Warmest regards
Giorgio

Giorgio, you finally fell into my cleaver trap, meat cleaver that is.

If the cap below was made by Arno Bauer under license from Clemens Wagner as you are stating above in your last post, what part of this "ARNO BAUER" cap has traits of a Clemens Wagner to be licensed.

You previously stated that this design of cap had no Clemens Wagner manufacturing traits.

Now you say that it is possibly made under licence from Clemens Wagner.

Note, to make something under license, in this case a cap, you would have to use the design of the maker.

You didn't realise that by adding your last entry that you have inadvertantly admitted finally, that the cap is a Clemens Wagner by claiming that it has been licensed from CW by Arno Bauer.

It was nice ducking and diving with you, this time I'd like to here your next move. You are currently at Check Mate, Me Old Mate.

J T

[sturmbannfuhrer]

And here's another, no distributor mark this time

This must be the Wagner design that giorgio said Arno Bauer licensed???????

[sturmbannfuhrer]

The maker mark in the cap above contains a squiggly CW logo directly above the first line of printed text, which is the same as the squiggly CW mark shown in the center of the older Clemens Wagner maker's mark shown below:

J T

[NTZ]

It was nice ducking and diving with you, this time I'd like to here your next move. You are currently at Check Mate, Me Old Mate.
J T

That is a fact!

[giorgio]

ok...ok...ok...I surrender
You're the big boss and maybe you're right........
but I'm not so deep in your language to understand everythings.....and I'd like to try to explain myself a little bit better......
For me to make something under license doesn't mean to have the same product.......the CocaCola made here in Europe has nothing to do with the American one,and is made by "Pincopallo" Factory in Rome even if they're legally authorised to use the mark.......
Here we sow pics of ErEl distributed by Kurz, but they have the ErEl features, we sow CW caps distributed by Kurz but they have the CW features.......then we sow caps with a logo that looks like the CW one and other features.......you say it's a CW....ok maybe you're right ...but sorry I'm not so sure............if you can find the original CW logo on these caps means only they were authorised to put the mark on a cap made by Kurz....

So if I'll buy a CW cap I'll look for the CW features if not is a Kurz cap.........
and then I think (of course I could be wrong) but if Mr Wilkins has found documents in Germany that proof that Kurz was a maker, why don't believe him ?
Warmest regards........
Giorgio

[sturmbannfuhrer]

ok...ok...ok...I surrender
You're the big boss and maybe you're right........
but I'm not so deep in your language to understand everythings.....and I'd like to try to explain myself a little bit better......
For me to make something under license doesn't mean to have the same product.......the CocaCola made here in Europe has nothing to do with the American one,and is made by "Pincopallo" Factory in Rome even if they're legally authorised to use the mark.......
Here we sow pics of ErEl distributed by Kurz, but they have the ErEl features, we sow CW caps distributed by Kurz but they have the CW features.......then we sow caps with a logo that looks like the CW one and other features.......you say it's a CW....ok maybe you're right ...but sorry I'm not so sure............if you can find the original CW logo on these caps means only they were authorised to put the mark on a cap made by Kurz....

So if I'll buy a CW cap I'll look for the CW features if not is a Kurz cap.........
and then I think (of course I could be wrong) but if Mr Wilkins has found documents in Germany that proof that Kurz was a maker, why don't believe him ?
Warmest regards........
Giorgio

Giorgio, you can't give up, I had loads more to show, bah

The coke licensing thing is a good point.

Back in 1993 I went to World of Coca Cola in Atlanta, Georgia.

Wonderful place, they have all the recipes for the coke sold around the world and can offer tastings of these. The flavours have evolved over the years, you just have to look back a few years to when Coke America decided to chabge the taste of the USA coke. They had to bring the original back branded as coke classic, to avoid a backlash.

Take a butchers at this great website, it tells a great ongoing story.

Ladies and Gentlmen, I present to you the World of Coca Cola, live via web link. Terms and conditions apply.

http://www.woccatlanta.com/

All the Best J T