Heer Officers Visor

[NTZ]

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show they did not exist.

That is a wise way to collect. Prove a Janke did not exist pre 1945. Happy collecting.

[Lasse Kongo]

That is a wise way to collect. Prove a Janke did not exist pre 1945. Happy collecting.

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Happy collecting you also!

Nobody should collect anything else then he is happy and secure with.

But as said, preferance is not the same as original, not in my world anyhow. But then I am no EXPERT.

Lasse

[NTZ]

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Happy collecting you also!

Nobody should collect anything else then he is happy and secure with.

But as said, preferance is not the same as original, not in my world anyhow. But then I am no EXPERT.

Lasse

I agree I can't prove it "yet" but its day will come and I will be vindicated. I will say this. Wilkins told me once that in his interviews with Lubstein’s grandson that he remembered as a kid (1944/45) going to the factory and seeing parts stacked up high. I wonder where those parts went after 1945? My point is there was no shortage of parts that some claim to justify things and there certainly was a surplus after the war with no where to go.

[Lasse Kongo]

I agree I can't prove it "yet" but its day will come and I will be vindicated. I will say this. Wilkins told me once that in his interviews with Lubstein’s grandson that he remembered as a kid (1944/45) going to the factory and seeing parts stacked up high. I wonder where those parts went after 1945? My point is there was no shortage of parts that some claim to justify things and there certainly was a surplus after the war with no where to go.

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Probably used during manufacture of other caps, one can see many WW2 manufactured parts in caps manufactured even as late as the 60´s. Look at early BW caps and you will find WW 2 made parts in them as well.


Lasse

[NTZ]

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Probably used during manufacture of other caps, one can see many WW2 manufactured parts in caps manufactured even as late as the 60´s. Look at early BW caps and you will find WW 2 made parts in them as well.


Lasse

True but did you ever see any post war visors by Lubstein with the wartime Erel logo or that type lining? Im sure a lot was left after the war. I seen a 1948 visor made by Lubstein with completely different materials than its wartime counterpart. Dave seen a dealer selling wartime linings by the bundle in the 1970's. Opens the door to a lot of possibilities.

[NTZ]

Here is the one question that does not seem to have a logical answer to these. Lubstein’s products were extremely consistent throughout production. Lets assume he did start making these late war visors in 1945 or so. How come the shapes are not consistent? How come the sweatbands are different on just about every one? Wouldn’t you think by that time he would have the production line concept down to a science? He had previous to that. Now look at the late war Schellenberg. They are all identical in construction. Gray lining with cotton sides, pressed paper visor and sweatband in gray or similer color. The only option was if it had the padded front or not. Look at the late war Pekuro’s. They are all identical in construction. It does not make any sense to me at all.

[Dave Kane]

....to clarify and confirm! The Great Western Gun Show was the world event for guns and militaria. 1976 or 1977 in building #4 a group of Germans dumped out bags and bags of visor caps like they were trash AND bundles of visor cap liners of all makes....

At the time I thought who in the heck would buy just the linings...I was much younger then

[stonemint]

I am with NTZ on these late-war Erels for the reasons he has cited many times before. I am not close-minded, and I am open to any evidence to the contrary. But when it comes to proof, I think he has established by clear and convincing evidence that these hats are most probably (not possibly) post-war. They definately have more in common with the DDR visors than their TR production.

As NTZ noted, there were piles of visor cap parts in the Erelhaus at war's end--don't forget that the building wasn't touched by the bombs (and still stands to this day). American GI's were super souvenir-hungry, and these green occupation troops needed "proof" that they were there, even if after the guns had been silent for months (remember the Eickhorn "Field Day" SA parts daggers?) I believe these hats were made in an attempt to keep the company afloat. Look how desperate Erel was--they almost immediately started making Soviet hats for their new masters.

Compare some of the late-war Erels to their DDR products in terms of materials--almost exactly the same. But what really shifted the burden of proof for me was when we found a DDR visor with the pre-war Lubstein sweatdiamond, indicating they were using up left-over stocks. This, and the fact that all these hats are unissued depot queens (and only in WH--not Kriegs, LW, civil, or any other)--they were simply made for the post-war market, which in this case were the over-paid American GIs.

Like NTZ said, if/when someone pulls one from the family of a German vet, we will have to re-think our position--but in 62 years I have yet to see it happen.

[NTZ]

For me the clincher on these is the sweatband. If anything would have been standardized by wars end it would be the sweatband. Especially since Erel had already accomplished that years prior. Late war Schellenberg’s two versions, late war Pekuro one version, late war Erel hundreds. They are all different for the most part. The only exception is that real thick leather ones found on the post war caps. I have even seen sweatbands on these with other maker’s marks and 1930’s dates. The other problem I have is I have found Luft visors with 44 & 45 dates in them still using the Stirnschutz sweatband. Why only change the Heer ones? If anyone was hungry for souvenirs it was the Soviets. I would not doubt this cottage industry went on for years. Interesting how the overwhelming majority of them come out of Europe too. All mint. I have only seen one that supposedly came from a US vet. My guess is he was stationed in Berlin after the war. Until one comes with a grouping direct from a German vet or his family I am not buying.

Oh one more thing to add regarding Stonemints comment on how they are not found on Luft, Kreigs, SS or civil. The Heer was the largest of all the organization so it makes sense to me that Heer insignia would have had the largest surplus after the war. It makes sense that they would all be Heer.

[Dave Kane]

The sentiment of 'prove it didn't exist' in '45 was the forefront of the collectors who fell for the Knight's Cross (Rounder) sales and got caught up in the subsequent debate....

First hand observations were discounted and stories unfortunately accepted just because so many collectors had purchased these....eventually shown to be a sham via science but accepted, why?

Because of the $$ factor!

I see the same trend with these caps.....

[Gerard/Relic Hunter]

Original late economy erel cap.

-Gerard

[jarkis88]

Where

[solo]

Original late economy erel cap.

-Gerard

I would agree with you ,but why only economy for WH?The other were more rich?
I think there are late war erel's,but not made like this,they could have also the cardboard visors but lining and sweatband regular for that factory
Cheers
Carlo

[DonC]

OK, I'll bite... On this cap only, and with the usual caveat of "I'd really need to have it in hand", here's why I would pass if I saw this on a dealer's site or eBan, or wherever:

1. As Nick already pointed out, the pleats look a little rough to me.
2. The interior is stone mint/unworn, but there looks to be some degree of wear to the sweat band?

#2 is the one that would give me the most indigestion. As I said previously, I would be happy to be proven wrong.

One other, more general note - when I have encountered these on some dealer's websites, they are often priced quite a bit lower than "earlier" model caps that are in a more worn/beat condition. Is it because they are "late war economy models", or is it because somebody knows something?

Just my 2¢

Don

[NTZ]

Don the debate on these has been going on for years. When I first got into visors around 1990 I was told by a long time collector they were fakes made post war with “some” period parts. I was also told the same for Alteste’s. When I first started collecting many still thought Alteste’s were period visors. Hell some still do today. I have always tried to prove the existence of these one way or another but have had no luck. My personal feelings are these are post war. Am I right? Who knows until something solid in the way of proof comes through. I would be satisfied with a German vet acquired one. If these were made by Lubstein prior to 1945 they would fly in the face of everything I know about Erel visors. I certainly would never say never but I know I will not be buying any.