Propaganda chrusher

[jacquesf]

Ben, No need, I took both crushers out in the sun and this one is black. What ss waffewarbe was grey/bluegrey. Jacques

I'd say Heer crushers were still being made right up to the end as well as SS ones. No real reason to think otherwise IMO.
Jacques, can you get some good macro photos of the band in different lighting conditions? It really does look jet black on my screen.

[Ernst-H]

inside, note replacement /additional liner

Hi Jacques,
Why is this a replaced/repaired liner?

I have a polizeicap in my collection that I believe is untouched that also has a two color liner (in this case waterproof dark blue top with greyish/tan colored padded sides)

Nice looking cap btw

[BenVK]

Ben, No need, I took both crushers out in the sun and this one is black. What ss waffewarbe was grey/bluegrey. Jacques

You're confusing me now man! You said it was green/black before but it's definitely jet black yeah?
If so, I'd have that insignia off in a flash to check for evidence of an SS bevo skull and eagle.

[jacquesf]

You think you are confused???? This cap has got me stumped. The wreath seems to have been on it forever. Ernst, I don't know anylonger. Jacques

You're confusing me now man! You said it was green/black before but it's definitely jet black yeah?
If so, I'd have that insignia off in a flash to check for evidence of an SS bevo skull and eagle.

[jacquesf]

The cap is on is way to Ben for a hands on assesment. I am sure he will provide the answers. Much more qualified than me. Jacques

[BenVK]

I've been scratching my head on this one and I believe I might have solved the puzzle.

Ok, so black band, grey piping, Heer insignia. Doesn't add up does it but how about this theory?

The RFSS (Himmler's personnal staff) was originaly assigned light grey piping then it was changed in 42 to dark grey piping. So, imagine that you've made a handfull of light grey piped RFSS caps, they're sitting on your shop shelf, waiting to be sold (without insignia because the officer may want either metal badges or bevo) then they go and change the bloody colour! What to do? Well, you take them and apply Heer insignia and sell them to the Army boys instead! The light grey is close enough to white after all so why not?

[jacquesf]

Funnily enough I also made the RFSS connection. It just sounds more plausible coming from Ben. I just thought the SS staff officer got transferred to the Heer, being General staff and had the army insignia applied. Also the propaganda lot was apparantly only established in 1943. A logic transfer from SS staff to Army propaganda?
Remember the cords were also removed. The cap was apparently found in a abandoned staff car.

I just cannot believe the wreath has not been period proffesionally applied. My Erel cav crushers wreath application looks like a home job compared with this one. Jacques

I've been scratching my head on this one and I believe I might have solved the puzzle.

Ok, so black band, grey piping, Heer insignia. Doesn't add up does it but how about this theory?

The RFSS (Himmler's personnal staff) was originaly assigned light grey piping then it was changed in 42 to dark grey piping. So, imagine that you've made a handfull of light grey piped RFSS caps, they're sitting on your shop shelf, waiting to be sold (without insignia because the officer may want either metal badges or bevo) then they go and change the bloody colour! What to do? Well, you take them and apply Heer insignia and sell them to the Army boys instead! The light grey is close enough to white after all so why not?

[phild]

We can put all kinds of theories togeather and it makes no difference as they are just wild stabs at an possible explaination.

I left some room back on the first page of this thread for this cap to have been W-SS. The SS crushers are in may opinion are perhaps the least understood and most subject to bad (inaccurate) conceptions than any other type of 3rd Reich headgear.

I will say that often if not most always, W-SS officers had these type of caps made with velvet or in some cases material close to velvet (plush napped materials) utilized for the bands. The problem was that velvet did not hold up well when utilized on a cap that got the type of use as a crusher was intended to get (ie wet, folded, heavy sweaty wear, dirt..etc) and therefore, as born out in some clear close up photos some officers may have worn the standard badge cloth bands....either ordered this way or just using caps intended for NCOs...I have no idea.

As to the Heer insignia, it is one of two things:
1. Post war added to a cap with previous SS insignia...for whatever reason.
2. Wartime added by an officer who was Army but bought this cap with his correct piping and did not think twice about the color of the band...and I bet no one else did either or
2a. It belonged to an SS officer (RFSS) who was transferred to the Heer (whatever branch) and kept his old cap and did not care about the waffenfarben issue...it happened in some cases within services so I don't see the big deal with it happening between services.

I personally think that possibility 2a is not likley and that the answer lies in number 1 or 2.

[jacquesf]

Phil, thank you for you explanation, it makes sence. In my mind I am pretty sure that it started of life as SS cap and that the insignia and cords was then period changed to army. Why I can only speculate.

Just another question, what was the regulations regarding tunics and insignia when a transfer or secondmend from the Waffen SS to the Army occured? In the SA army there was a whole set of guidelines re this situation, eg you maintain your original beret colour , but the badges changed to that of the new unit etc. Jacques

We can put all kinds of theories togeather and it makes no difference as they are just wild stabs at an possible explaination.

I left some room back on the first page of this thread for this cap to have been W-SS. The SS crushers are in may opinion are perhaps the least understood and most subject to bad (inaccurate) conceptions than any other type of 3rd Reich headgear.

I will say that often if not most always, W-SS officers had these type of caps made with velvet or in some cases material close to velvet (plush napped materials) utilized for the bands. The problem was that velvet did not hold up well when utilized on a cap that got the type of use as a crusher was intended to get (ie wet, folded, heavy sweaty wear, dirt..etc) and therefore, as born out in some clear close up photos some officers may have worn the standard badge cloth bands....either ordered this way or just using caps intended for NCOs...I have no idea.

As to the Heer insignia, it is one of two things:
1. Post war added to a cap with previous SS insignia...for whatever reason.
2. Wartime added by an officer who was Army but bought this cap with his correct piping and did not think twice about the color of the band...and I bet no one else did either or
2a. It belonged to an SS officer (RFSS) who was transferred to the Heer (whatever branch) and kept his old cap and did not care about the waffenfarben issue...it happened in some cases within services so I don't see the big deal with it happening between services.

I personally think that possibility 2a is not likley and that the answer lies in number 1 or 2.

[Paul McKee]

Wreath machine sewn?

Isn't that wreath machine-sewn to the band? My understanding is that type of attachment would have to have been done before the cap band was assembled...otherwise the cap would have to be disassembled or the evidence of machine sewing would be quite obvious on the inside. If it was machine sewn after assembly, perhaps the new lining is hiding the evidence?

My point is, had an officer purchased this cap and had Heer insignia added I doubt that they would have gone to the effort of disassembly to machine sew the wreath and not care about the color of the cap band. I would have expected neat hand sewing in that case.

I'll be interested to see what Ben thinks.

Paul

[phild]

Isn't that wreath machine-sewn to the band? My understanding is that type of attachment would have to have been done before the cap band was assembled...otherwise the cap would have to be disassembled or the evidence of machine sewing would be quite obvious on the inside. If it was machine sewn after assembly, perhaps the new lining is hiding the evidence?

My point is, had an officer purchased this cap and had Heer insignia added I doubt that they would have gone to the effort of disassembly to machine sew the wreath and not care about the color of the cap band. I would have expected neat hand sewing in that case.

I'll be interested to see what Ben thinks.

Paul

I agree with that if that weath was machine attached (it appears to be) and the thread does NOT go thru to the reverse side of the band backing, then it was applied prior to assembly or very very un-likley dis-assembled, sewn and put back together...almost impossible and foolish for a period job.

The reverse of the backing needs to be checked for sure. If the stitching goes thru to the back side, I would say it is an SS cap converted.

[phild]

Isn't that wreath machine-sewn to the band? My understanding is that type of attachment would have to have been done before the cap band was assembled...otherwise the cap would have to be disassembled or the evidence of machine sewing would be quite obvious on the inside. If it was machine sewn after assembly, perhaps the new lining is hiding the evidence?

My point is, had an officer purchased this cap and had Heer insignia added I doubt that they would have gone to the effort of disassembly to machine sew the wreath and not care about the color of the cap band. I would have expected neat hand sewing in that case.

I'll be interested to see what Ben thinks.

Paul

I agree with that if that weath was machine attached (it appears to be) and the thread does NOT go thru to the reverse side of the band backing, then it was applied prior to assembly or very very un-likley dis-assembled, sewn and put back together...almost impossible and foolish for a period job.

The reverse of the backing needs to be checked for sure. If the stitching goes thru to the back side, I would say it is an SS cap converted.

[BenVK]

The reverse of the backing needs to be checked for sure. If the stitching goes thru to the back side, I would say it is an SS cap converted.

I'd agree with that. We shall see.

[jacquesf]

For everyone that was interested in this crusher, Ben had a hands-on look at it after I mailed it to him. Here is his findings:

"Well, a strange one isn't it.

Firstly, the eagle is definitely replaced and I think a repro as well, I don't like it at all.

Next, the band is black but I don't think this cap was made as an SS cap because that wreath is machine stitched onto the band with the top edges wrapped around the band before assembly to the rest of the cap. The pasteboard is 100% original with no holes for any other insignia and original to the cap.

Same goes for the sweatband and peak in my opinion, all the stitching looks machine done and original.

The top blue lining panel is a replacement for sure, It been neatly handstitched through the side panels and then out through the top of the cap, just under the top piping. It's nicely done but the panel is slightly too small though which has gathered the crown in towards the centre of the cap, giving it a bit of a strange look. Chances are this was a period repair.

It would have had a chincord as well as you said, I think with the sewn on buttons because the holes are very small, just big enough for a lengh of cord to go through but not the split prongs type buttons.

What about the piping? It's not solid grey, it's definitely a pale, pastel greyish blue. To be honest, I reckon it's transport. I was looking for an example to compare the colour and it's very, very similar to this one. This one even has a black band as well I think, although Peter describes it as dark green.
http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H042557.html

Anyway, that's my opinion. Still a great cap, it's so so light and well made! but not what we thought it was at first."

[Glenn McInnes]

"Well, a strange one isn't it.

Firstly, the eagle is definitely replaced and I think a repro as well"

I would agree with you.Center band is most probably a very dark green which appears almost black,have seen this before.



Glenn