Propaganda chrusher

[BenVK]

Jacques, what's the true colour of that band? I asked the seller if it was black and he said no, dark green but it still looks black to me. A green band will not grow darker from age and exposure, if anything, it would go lighter.

The more I look at it, the more I think that it could be an Imperial cap. The cover looks small and there's hardly any overhang on the sides. Have you checked the pasteboard in the front for holes from an Imperial cockade? Look at this WW1 Leib-Kürrassier Regiment cap, it looks remarkably similar although the piping is white and the crown hasn't been pinched.

[jacquesf]

I have just checked, the seams are definitily not the same lenght. The front is 66mm,sides 37mm, back is 45mm. There is also a feint name on the inside of the sweatband, Kugler. Anybody knows him?

Ben, I have checked the color against my cav EREL crucher and it is very similar. The more worn areas looks black, while the areas with less wear under the overhang is more black green. I had another good look and it looks more like my chruscher than the WWI cap you presented. I am leaning towards a heavily worn WWWII crusher which had chinstraps added and removed and a period repair/ replacement to the liner. There is also a period repair on the back between the cap top and the capband. Jacques

There was no Imperial cap with these colours, nor did Imperial caps use twisted chincords as per the impression on the peak. The sure-fire way to test if a cap is Imperial or later is to measure the length of the seams running up the sides and front and back of the crown- they will always be equal in length on Imperial caps, regardless of how the cap has been formed to the head by the wearer...

[BenVK]

Ok but are there any holes in the pasteboard? just to be sure...

[jacquesf]

Definitely no holes in the paste board. The thought of it being an ex ss chrusher crossed my mind as well, but the lack of holes and the colour took care of that thought. Jacques

Ok but are there any holes in the pasteboard? just to be sure...

[derka]

hello,

i'm pretty ignorant in crushers caps,
so i can't say anything about this one.
but i have just a question :
i thought grey waffenfarbe for propaganda truppen was officialy adopted in 1943, january 25th.
the "alter art" feldmütze for officer was still manufactured at this date ?
i believed it was officialy stopped after 1938 ?
regards
derka

[phild]

I have just checked, the seams are definitily not the same lenght. The front is 66mm,sides 37mm, back is 45mm. There is also a feint name on the inside of the sweatband, Kugler. Anybody knows him?

Ben, I have checked the color against my cav EREL crucher and it is very similar. The more worn areas looks black, while the areas with less wear under the overhang is more black green. I had another good look and it looks more like my chruscher than the WWI cap you presented. I am leaning towards a heavily worn WWWII crusher which had chinstraps added and removed and a period repair/ replacement to the liner. There is also a period repair on the back between the cap top and the capband. Jacques

Be sure that you check the band color in sunlight. I have found three officers named Kugler. The Heer list only contains Major and above but is very late war and I am not sure if is list earlier KIA. At any rate one was a OberstLeut. In a GBJ Rgt. and the other was listed as Infantry and spent the entire war in a army district assignment. The 3rd was a W-SS Cpt. named Hans Kugler and other than a birth date and SS number I have no other information as to his branch or assignments.

[Arran]

Also, are there perforations in the front of the sweatband? This is not a feature of Imperial caps.

[jacquesf]

Derka, I am not sure about the regulations, but it is possible that the gray has faded from a very light/gray blue. I have checked the piping and there is a very slight discolourisation from the back to the front of the piping. Jacques

hello,

i'm pretty ignorant in crushers caps,
so i can't say anything about this one.
but i have just a question :
i thought grey waffenfarbe for propaganda truppen was officialy adopted in 1943, january 25th.
the "alter art" feldmütze for officer was still manufactured at this date ?
i believed it was officialy stopped after 1938 ?
regards
derka

[phild]

Definitely no holes in the paste board. The thought of it being an ex ss chrusher crossed my mind as well, but the lack of holes and the colour took care of that thought. Jacques

I'm not trying to build this up as a SS crusher, but just to be correct, a lot of SS crushers (all ranks) used sewn bevo insignia...so they would have left no holes in the band backing.

[jacquesf]

Lots of perforations across the front.

Also, are there perforations in the front of the sweatband? This is not a feature of Imperial caps.

[BenVK]

I wouldn't get hung up about regulations and wear out dates, the "alter art" style cap was one of THE most popular caps worn by all branches. There's plenty of evidence that show these caps being worn right up to the end of the war.

Jacques, this is a tricky one mate and probably why it didn't get snapped up in 10 seconds flat. At least it's now pretty certain it isn't an Imperial cap.
Which is the original lining by the way? the blue?

[jacquesf]

Ben, It is the purple colour,thre is also some kind of padding under the blue.

Phil it would be interesting to know where the ss Kugler served, because of the grey/bluegrey colour of the piping. I have attached a pic of the name. Jacques

I wouldn't get hung up about regulations and wear out dates, the "alter art" style cap was one of THE most popular caps worn by all branches. There's plenty of evidence that show these caps being worn right up to the end of the war.

Jacques, this is a tricky one mate and probably why it didn't get snapped up in 10 seconds flat. At least it's now pretty certain it isn't an Imperial cap.
Which is the original lining by the way? the blue?

[derka]

[QUOTE=BenVK;2144036]I wouldn't get hung up about regulations and wear out dates, the "alter art" style cap was one of THE most popular caps worn by all branches. There's plenty of evidence that show these caps being worn right up to the end of the war.

re,
i agree, Ben.
a so popular cap that some officers, who couldn't get one during the war, modified later model of schirmützen to make them look like alter art ones,
including replacement with insignias removed from the old model.
and officers who had been lucky enought to get alter art caps often kept them as long as possible when they could.
but my question was:
alter art caps were still produced until the end of the war ?
or at least in this case of presumed PK piping, untill begining of 1943 ?
regards
derka

[phild]

[quote=derka;2144170]

I wouldn't get hung up about regulations and wear out dates, the "alter art" style cap was one of THE most popular caps worn by all branches. There's plenty of evidence that show these caps being worn right up to the end of the war.

re,
i agree, Ben.
a so popular cap that some officers, who couldn't get one during the war, modified later model of schirmützen to make them look like alter art ones,
including replacement with insignias removed from the old model.
and officers who had been lucky enought to get alter art caps often kept them as long as possible when they could.
but my question was:
alter art caps were still produced until the end of the war ?
or at least in this case of presumed PK piping, untill begining of 1943 ?
regards
derka

I believe strongly that SS officers were having these style caps made well into the war and perhaps even until very late. I've never seen nor heard of the regulation authorizing these caps for wear by SS officers or the reg. prohibiting them.....so I don't know if either existed.

As to the Heer "crushers" it's harder for me to say. I would believe that since they were private purchase that some limited number were made at the buyer's request for a good while after the replacement order came out. There were a number of uniform requlations that were not followed on a widespread basis for whatever reasons during the war.

[BenVK]

I'd say Heer crushers were still being made right up to the end as well as SS ones. No real reason to think otherwise IMO.
Jacques, can you get some good macro photos of the band in different lighting conditions? It really does look jet black on my screen.