Genuine Concentration Camp - KZ - headgear pics?

[Bob Coleman]

Although I Have Not Looked At Any Description Of The Afore Mentioned Brown Piped Hat, I Have Never, Repeat Never, Given Any Kind Of Opinion Of Authentication Of Mr. Rannow's Hat. He Initially Sent Me Images Prior To Buying The Piece. I Warned Him To Take Care In Buying Such An Item. At The Sos Several Years Ago, He Brought It To Me And Stated He Had Bought It. I Gave It A Quick Once Over And Thanked Him For The Opportunity To See It. I Did Not Ask Him For A Price And Have Never Had Any Interest In Owning The Hat.
If He Has Stated In Writing That I Authenticated His Hat, I Would Like To See That Statement. The Cap Has Been For Sale For Several Years With No Takers. I Think That Makes A Strong Statement As To The Validity Of The Piece.

[Bob Coleman]

Since My Prior Post, I Have Since Found The Link To The Thread Where The Statement Was Made. I Have Sent Mr. Rannow A Communication Demanding An Immediate Retraction Of His Statement. When Someone Buys A Piece Such As This Hat After I Had Warned Him To Take Care, It Is Not My Responsibility To Tell Him, In My Opinion, He Screwed Up.

[TonyS]

It makes no sense to ignore Bob's warning, especially on an item as risky as this.

I guess he'll not be feeling too good when he sees this thread.

[SurvivingPanzer]

Not to hijack this thread or change the subject of museums, but I think many museums have reproductions in their collections. Most staff probably know this and put up a stiff defense if anybody challenges authenticity on anything. This happened to a friend of mine recently on a museum trip. There were 6-7 WW2 German general's uniforms named to Panzer generals including an SS-Gruppenfuhrer (with Adolf Hitler cuffband) and a Polizei-Brigadefuhrer assault gun uniform. My friend knows SS stuff and found that the SS-Gruppenfuhrer and the Polizei-Brigadefuhrer were both reproductions. He questioned the authenticity of these and was told that everything in the museum was REAL; no REPROS. Museums rely on the vast majority of visitors not knowing anything about the subject matter so they can pretty much display whatever they want. And the few who can challenge them are put down as not knowing what they're talking about -- we are a museum, therefore, we know everything. Funny thing is this museum has a curator who has been a uniform and militaria collector for nearly 50 years. Either he doesn't know what he's doing, or something fishy is going on!!! It would be interesting to see his collection!!!

Bob

Interesting, now that I have thoughly read up on awards and uniforms I will be checking out museums this summer. Maybe I will find some fakes.

[Allan P.]

Just as a matter of interest I was in the Imperial War Museum in London two weeks ago.

In the Holocaust exhibition there is on display a rather battered visor with, brown piping, attributed as coming from a 'concentration camp'.

Allan

[NTZ]

I found the thread on KZ on GDC. The owner was given ample warnings about the cap by two of the most respected SS collectors I know, one of which was Bob Coleman. Not only that but as pics were added so were the doubts. I see no one jumping on and saying great cap. Just the opposite in fact. This was all prior to the owner’s purchase of the cap. In the last few posts Mr. Rannow came back on to say he bought it and it checked out at the SOS. I generally feel sorry for someone when they get burnt but in the case I don’t. It looks like he kept his eyes shut and only heard what he wanted to hear. He bought the cap even after the warnings and then tried to vet it at the SOS. If you are going to but an ultra rare visor I suggest you know your visors inside and out before purchase. NEVER depend on a third party for authentication.

At this time I think it is time for a plug. Some members here (I would like to substitute the word members for something a little more derogatory but I won’t) feel some of the threads started my myself and other members like Stonemint are trivial and “silly” as a few of these guys called them. They are????? When we start threads about certain traits of certain makers it is for a reason. It is to help other collectors know the basics so they can make informed decisions. Anyone reading one of our Pekuro threads would have instantly seen huge red flags with this visor. So the next time you see a thread about how so-and-so attached sweatbands or whether or not pasteboard was treated, etc, etc, etc. Instead of thinking you know everything because you have been collecting for 40yrs (blindly) and find our posts “silly” shut up and learn something. It might actually save you some money some day. Ok I am off my soapbox now.

[Guy]

well pre war is it not?

On that KZ officer cap, is it my eyes or is that totally incorrect piping? It looks like cord - shouldn't have that kind of abrasive texture.

Bob

[TonyS]

That is good advice Nick, but of course many lurking here will not follow it I'm sure.

Here is part of what Bob said to Mr. Rannow on the GDC thread:

"Bill-
I do not like this hat. At the first glance, I felt it had a chance of being authentic. However, the lining material is quite different from that I have seen on original Pekuro hats. As I believe this to be an excellent fake, I will not go in to more detail here. However, I will bring an original Pekuro SS hat to the SOS for you to examine. This piece is reminiscent of the work of an unknown to me faker who also made hats with the Erel and Clement Wagner label."

So a prudent warning went unheeded.

[Kreager]

At this time I think it is time for a plug. Some members here (I would like to substitute the word members for something a little more derogatory but I won’t) feel some of the threads started my myself and other members like Stonemint are trivial and “silly” as a few of these guys called them. They are????? When we start threads about certain traits of certain makers it is for a reason. It is to help other collectors know the basics so they can make informed decisions. Anyone reading one of our Pekuro threads would have instantly seen huge red flags with this visor. So the next time you see a thread about how so-and-so attached sweatbands or whether or not pasteboard was treated, etc, etc, etc. Instead of thinking you know everything because you have been collecting for 40yrs (blindly) and find our posts “silly” shut up and learn something. It might actually save you some money some day. Ok I am off my soapbox now.

Well Said Nick. If "they" think it's "silly" and they think they know everything about everything, good for them. I personally enjoy every "silly" thread and look forward to learning something new. Newer collectors look forward to these threads becuase it's not like the old days when you could get your hands on these caps like they "were going out of style" to examine them. Now days some collectors are lucky to afford a couple hats a year, not nearly enough "hands on" time to learn all there is to know. So those of you who think those "silly" threads are just taking up space, try looking at it through the eyes of the new collector and you'll understand how helpful those threads really are. NTZ and Stonemint Keep posting those "silly" threads you'll have at least one reader

[John Pic]

The dealer in question here is rather new to Third Reich Militaria. I Was introduced to him when he sent me an email and talked to me on the phone about 6 years ago regarding a Waffen SS officers uniform he aquired from a collection which as far as I know was a good one and is currently offered for sale at www.warelics.com. He is a nice guy and doesnt deserve to be ridiculed for making a bad decision,sometimes our desire to prosper in the hobby overides our common sense. I do agree opinions regarding the NCO cap with the officer chincords. As a matter of fact I voiced loud criticism when I saw it had been bought for alot less and then re-offered on his site with a much higher price IMO due to the trend at the moment with certain GDC forum members trying to overhype black SS visors to solidify thier investments...which seemed to work as suddenly at that time every dealer raised thier prices.
I could never see Bob Coleman giving a thumbs up to a color piped visor without knowing every fact about it.NTZ and Stonemint youre assets to the community.

[bwanek1]

For information, in case any Brits or tourists to London are interested there is (or there was last summer) a brown piped SS visor on display in the Auschwitz display in the Imperial War Museum. I have no idea as to the authenticity of the cap and you are not allowed to take photos in that particular area.

I saw this cap this summer as well. I can't say for certain regarding the cap itself (dim lighting and no way to get a close look), but the insignia were OBVIOUS reproductions, which makes me doubt the cap too. I have referenced it in a few threads to illustrate the fact that even the best museums have fakes on display.

In some cases, museums intentionally put copies in their cases to complete a display or use reproduction insignia or uniform items to complete a mannequin when originals are unavailable. Such may have been the case at the Imperial War museum. In other cases, it is simply a matter that museum curators cannot be experts on everything and are sometimes fooled by the better fakes out there. In still other cases, museum personnel steal the originals for themselves and replace them with fakes.

Brad

[TonyS]

The dealer in question here is rather new to Third Reich Militaria. I Was introduced to him when he sent me an email and talked to me on the phone about 6 years ago regarding a Waffen SS officers uniform he aquired from a collection which as far as I know was a good one and is currently offered for sale at www.warelics.com. He is a nice guy and doesnt deserve to be ridiculed for making a bad decision,sometimes our desire to prosper in the hobby overides our common sense. I do agree opinions regarding the NCO cap with the officer chincords. As a matter of fact I voiced loud criticism when I saw it had been bought for alot less and then re-offered on his site with a much higher price IMO due to the trend at the moment with certain GDC forum members trying to overhype black SS visors to solidify thier investments...which seemed to work as suddenly at that time every dealer raised thier prices.
I could never see Bob Coleman giving a thumbs up to a color piped visor without knowing every fact about it.NTZ and Stonemint youre assets to the community.

John, I agree he probably does not deserve to be ridiculed but he is a dealer trying to sell a fake cap. Plus we all know when you put something up on the web it is there for everyone to rip into it. So we had a lively discussion and came to a conclusion. If he does not remove the cap from sale, the subject will come up again at some point in the future.

When Bob Rogers had his forum running, I posted my green piped SS visor and I believe Bob (Coleman) made a good comment based on the photos. However, I would never have big enough balls to say it had been vetted by the best names in the business based on that.

Is the officers tunic the medical one on Warelics?

[Dave Kane]

I found the thread on KZ on GDC. The owner was given ample warnings about the cap by two of the most respected SS collectors I know, one of which was Bob Coleman. Not only that but as pics were added so were the doubts. I see no one jumping on and saying great cap. Just the opposite in fact. This was all prior to the owner’s purchase of the cap. In the last few posts Mr. Rannow came back on to say he bought it and it checked out at the SOS. I generally feel sorry for someone when they get burnt but in the case I don’t. It looks like he kept his eyes shut and only heard what he wanted to hear. He bought the cap even after the warnings and then tried to vet it at the SOS. If you are going to but an ultra rare visor I suggest you know your visors inside and out before purchase. NEVER depend on a third party for authentication.

At this time I think it is time for a plug. Some members here (I would like to substitute the word members for something a little more derogatory but I won’t) feel some of the threads started my myself and other members like Stonemint are trivial and “silly” as a few of these guys called them. They are????? When we start threads about certain traits of certain makers it is for a reason. It is to help other collectors know the basics so they can make informed decisions. Anyone reading one of our Pekuro threads would have instantly seen huge red flags with this visor. So the next time you see a thread about how so-and-so attached sweatbands or whether or not pasteboard was treated, etc, etc, etc. Instead of thinking you know everything because you have been collecting for 40yrs (blindly) and find our posts “silly” shut up and learn something. It might actually save you some money some day. Ok I am off my soapbox now.

I find it 'silly' to have to explain WHY a cap is fake and when that is explained one gets another WHY. This trend is the same as 'prove' it isn't fake and so on....

I have been rained on for simple answers like: it's a fake, it's a fraud but really in today's PC world it may be the best answer! Folks will believe what they want so why open a can of worms..

$25,000,00.....it's fake, sort of says it all ,and therafter if believers, romantics or people with much more money than common sense take exception so be it.

It gets OLD really fast attempting to explain the 'why'....especially when it falls on deaf ears, cliques, circles and friends of like mind.

Let's try a clear approach.....one of simple language like 'it's a fake'!!!

[NTZ]

Well we know for sure the seller is aware of the fact that this thread exists. Bob contacted him to have his name removed from the other post. It still sits on the site with the following description:

“I am proud to be able to offer this very rare concentration camp officers SS visor. This is possibly the rarest of the SS visors and I am pretty sure the only one available on the market. The branch piping was only in use for about 1 year (1940). This hat is made by Peküro and is of the highest quality. There is some light mothing in the front and a little on the top. The insignia should be replaced as the proper ones should be silver lacquered zinc. This visor has been handled and it has been confirmed to be original by some of the most respected people in the SS cloth field. Click on the picture below to see more images. Serious inquiries only please. POR!”

At the very least temporally pull the cap and have someone who really is an authority on visors look at it. I am very curious as to who all these “experts” that handled it are? I can assure you of one thing. I don’t care what their names or reputations are, they are no experts.