HG Panzer M43?

[Leroy]

Yes, I thought that the last image was likely a Heer cap. Look at the wrap and accoutrements: Although the fellow has a LW long service device on his ribbon bar and is wearing the LW assault badge (and a Luftwaffe belt), the eagle is not really discernible, the tabs appear to be piped in pink (which was done, albeit sparingly, by some in the LW) and there is no HG cufftitle, even though he is "Der Spiess". Is he LW, recently transferred from the Heer, still wearing a Heer uniform, or LW recently transferred to the Heer?

[RamJet]

It actually is a Heer eagle on the cap in question:

[90th Light]

I am familiar with these images, the first one with the BEVO cockade is the rarest type (in photos). I believe with the type with the blue-grey trap the most typical. The third one is a Heer M-43 (imo). I don't think I have ever seen a black one with a padded cockade. At any rate, the subject cap is clearly not a Halfar and the lining is one I have never seen in a cap I thought to be original (it is possibly Heer overcoat sleeve lining).

Hello OSS, thank you for your input (and Leroy)

I value your observation about having not seen any photos of black HG panzer M43's with a padded cockade, especially given the number of HG photos that I know you would have studied over the years.

The padded cockade on my black HG M43 cap appears to have been machine zig-zag to the cap. It is done with such precision and quality, it is hard to tell. Hence why I asked John how the cockade was attached to his beyond doubt Carl Halfar "Berg"

I would be very surprised if the Germans never used the padded LW cockade (in folded or flat form) on some of their black HG panzer M43's before May 1945. The only type of cockade that I have ever seen on any LW cap made by Carl Halfar is the padded embroidered type.

When I compared this Carl Halfar black panzer M43 with my veteran brought back Carl Halfar Org. Todt M43, I thought I would find clear differences in cut, style and stitching which is typical of a super-fake today.

Instead I found the opposite. Although clearly made by two different machinists on two different days. The caps closely matched in many respects and points of manufacture. In fact, a lot closer than I first imagined they were going to. Both caps have been cut of the same pattern according to those who are trained in such matters and assembled in the same fashion.

Given your observations about the lining material. I agree, this type of cloth was "possibly" used for Greatcoat sleeves (and uniforms ?). Could you please tell me why this beyond doubt WH M43 cap (pictured below from a leading collection) has the same type of material for its liner ???

It would appear that this type of material was pressed into the manufacture of M43 caps during the war in limited cases but is rare.


Many thanks,

Chris

[90th Light]

double post

[Lenny W]

Chris the cap pictures in post 63 is mine and its a heavy cotton tropical material the weave is different

[90th Light]

Chris the cap pictures in post 63 is mine and its a heavy cotton tropical material the weave is different

Thanks Lenny,

it is for sure a nice example and one that I would be more than happy to own.

Would there be any chance of getting a couple of close up images of the weave ?

Chris

[Lenny W]

Thanks Lenny,

it is for sure a nice example and one that I would be more than happy to own.

Would there be any chance of getting a couple of close up images of the weave ?

Chris

Sure possibly after the holidays

[90th Light]

Sure possibly after the holidays

Thanks Lenny,

that would be great if you could but I know what it is like finding the time to get it done.

The interest never dies but other things in life can take over,

Chris

[OSS]

I wish that I could say that I have seen a number of black HG m-43 caps but I have not, they are rare as hens teeth. You would have been hard pressed to find one in'45. Most period shots of HG Pz personnel show them wearing sidecaps. I must admit that I have never even seen one that I believed to be original. I have ,however, owned many dozens of original m-43 caps and certainly handled hundreds of them. For me, the original example, and the two Richard P. examples set off alarms in my head. Firstly, I don't like to see makers in m-43 caps (the vast majority have RBNrs). I don't like the lining (I believe this is overcoat sleeve lining). I don't like Russian markings (they appeared in some originals when the wall came down, but later were added to repros as a sort of phoney "provenance"). I don't like the threadbare appearance which I have seen on many fakes. Now any one of these things could be explained away, but there are too many "red flags" for my liking, but as I said, I have never seen an HG m-43 cap so you may take this with a grain of salt.

[jacquesf]

It hurts me greatly to post this cap. It represents the lowest point in my collecting.J

[jacquesf]

Marking

[90th Light]

Interesting, "jacquestf's" cap has a different version of the stamp with no date ???

Chris

[90th Light]

I wish that I could say that I have seen a number of black HG m-43 caps but I have not, they are rare as hens teeth. You would have been hard pressed to find one in'45. Most period shots of HG Pz personnel show them wearing sidecaps. I must admit that I have never even seen one that I believed to be original. I have ,however, owned many dozens of original m-43 caps and certainly handled hundreds of them. For me, the original example, and the two Richard P. examples set off alarms in my head. Firstly, I don't like to see makers in m-43 caps (the vast majority have RBNrs). I don't like the lining (I believe this is overcoat sleeve lining). I don't like Russian markings (they appeared in some originals when the wall came down, but later were added to repros as a sort of phoney "provenance"). I don't like the threadbare appearance which I have seen on many fakes. Now any one of these things could be explained away, but there are too many "red flags" for my liking, but as I said, I have never seen an HG m-43 cap so you may take this with a grain of salt.

Noted and agreed. I appreciate your input into this subject. Especially given your level of interest, collecting and ongoing study of HG division units.

However, there are some scarce original 101% M43's caps with only a makers name or initials and no RB/ RF number. Usually they are dated 1943 but not always.

I agree the lining material is unusual but I have observed it on very rare occasions in other caps or shoulder board tongues.

There is a complete rethink/ research going on right now about Russian capture stamps. Many that have been dismissed are in fact turning out to not be fake. However, I do agree that some are. Until we can find out more, who can say for sure and what they mean. They are now a good thing to find in a "Pink Smock" .

The cap is only thread bare on the exposed areas. If you pull down the flap, the nap is completely intact like the day it was made. It has certainly not been remade from an original great coat. If it had, why use the sleeve liner for so many caps when they could have used the liner of the body of the coat for at least some caps ???

These caps were dismissed a long time ago by several collectors as a reproduction. However, not all collectors have dismissed them by a long shot. All I can say, when you hold my cap in hand and study its many features, there is a lot that is intriguing in an original way. In fact the list of postive points out numbers the list of negative points. I am however, realistic about how these are perceived in the collecting world today.

I understand what you are saying about how rare a black HG panzer M43 is. If a "beyond doubt" example did come along on the world market, I doubt that I would be able to afford it. However, until I do get such a "beyond doubt" black HG panzer M43 from a veteran source , this one will do. I certainly value the fact that it still has its original machine zig-zag stitched badges on it which most do not.

At the end of the day, I purchased this cap, many years ago for a very reasonable price. Thus it can happily sit on my question mark shelf as my ongoing and enjoyable study of them continues. $ for $ in the interest factor returned, it has turned out to be good value for money,

Chris

[90th Light]

Again a double post ? I do not know why ?

Chris

[90th Light]

Pictures with the flaps pulled down,

Chris