This should be an interesting thread!

[NTZ]

Since a lot of collectors especially ones newer to headgear depend on reference books and material to get them started in collecting how dependable are these materials? I think this will make an interesting thread and hopefully it will be educational and not personal or heated so here it goes.

What pieces of headgear have you seen in well known reference books that you think “might” be bad? We should try to steer around the word “fake” so lets call them questionable or ones that need a closer look. Feel free to discuss the pro’s and cons of each. This is how we learn. I am not starting this thread to stir the pot but to help collectors identify good from bad. Nothing worse than sitting at home looking at your $75 book and getting information that might not be 100% accurate.

I will start. Any one want to discuss the Erel Inf in Krawczyk’s book “German Army Uniforms of World War II” pg. 18?

Now for the visor. From the picture we can see it has the Erel patented “Stirnschutz” sweatband by the reed. The air hole pattern conforms to no know originals although it does look very similar to the Janke types. The sweatband also shows no signs of front padding and the v-pattern stitching looks larger and wider than known examples. Now on to the shield. The type size and font of the letters seems to be off along with the fact that it is too thick and very fuzzy.

While you have that book open does anyone want to take a stab at the Erel generals on pg. 94? This one is a bit easier.

[Kreager]

While you have that book open does anyone want to take a stab at the Erel generals on pg. 94? This one is a bit easier.

Interesting Thread Nick. I'lll give this Generals visor a shot.

1. The sweatband is marked "Ideal". You can see where it's been sewn in to the cap. Also no patented forehead protection seen.

2. Also on this one the maker mark is not good. If you look at the "Erel" under a glass you can see it's not even corect. Should the Offizier Kleiderklasse be on a Generals cap? (this I'm not sure of)

This would be enough to make me run!!!

I hope I'm close to being correct.

Ok guys keep it going.

Nick, you have really opened our eyes with this thread.

[NTZ]

You’re on the money on the Generals. First that is not an Erel sweatband. Second it is not sewn in properly and third the lining has an odd sheen to it and the sides look to be the same as the top. Now some “good” Erel’s were made with the same material sides and top but it is rare to see and it is just one more nail in this ones coffin.

Oh, yes general could and would have the offizier’s Kleiderkasse markings so that is ok.


There is one maybe two more in the book, can anyone find them?

[Dave Kane]

Field Uniforms of Germany's Panzer Elite by Edwards & Pruett....page 276 and unfortunately, published before the fraud was discovered

[NTZ]

While I still have the same book open how about the Armin Griener on pg 94. Looks to be made in typical Janke fashion.

[NTZ]

I just remembered the one we discussed here not long ago. The unissued Pekuro crusher on pg.58-59 of Moran& Maguire's book. About a week or two after the thread I seen it listed on EBay so the discussion must have had some merit. Ok anyone else? Stonemint where are you today?

[Kreager]

I just remembered the one we discussed here not long ago. The unissued Pekuro crusher on pg.58-59 of Moran& Maguire's book. About a week or two after the thread I seen it listed on EBay so the discussion must have had some merit. Ok anyone else? Stonemint where are you today?

I saw that on Ebay too, and then it looked like some one did the buy it now for about $2200. Missed that thread, what was the outcome of the cap during the discussion. I don't like the looks of it personally, but I'm still learning.

[Dave Kane]

I just remembered the one we discussed here not long ago. The unissued Pekuro crusher on pg.58-59 of Moran& Maguire's book. About a week or two after the thread I seen it listed on EBay so the discussion must have had some merit. Ok anyone else? Stonemint where are you today?

The same cap was featured in Headgear of Hitler's Germany by Halcomb and Saris pg. 48, published in '89.

Sold on Ebay at the 'Buy it now' price of $3k/+ where just weeks earlier it was offered at a dealer's site for $1,500.

[NTZ]

I saw that on Ebay too, and then it looked like some one did the buy it now for about $2200. Missed that thread, what was the outcome of the cap during the discussion. I don't like the looks of it personally, but I'm still learning.

Well the majority felt like you did, they did not like it. Dave I believe actually handled it at one time.

[NTZ]

I hate to pick on the same author but in the book “Waffen SS Uniforms and Insignia” there are two or three Erel SS visors with the “Offizier’s Kleiderkasse” markings in them. I have no problem with Kleiderkasse sold SS visors but why would an SS visor have Offizier’s Kleiderkasse marked in them? Those markings are army markings solely used by the army’s Offizier Kleiderkasse. Erel surely had shields with just the logo that were sold outside the Offizier’s Kleiderkasse so you will be hard pressed to explain how an Erel SS visor could be made with the army Kleiderkasse stamp in them. This is a whole separate thread and some of the individuals knowledgeable with the particulars no longer post here unfortunately. Just be aware if you see that you are already off to a bad start in regards to originality.

[Gerard/Relic Hunter]

All the Waffen-SS officer visor caps with "offizier-kleiderkasse" in them, that I have ever seen, were army caps rebuilt as WSS. On the other hand, all the WSS kleiderkasse caps I have ever handled or seen, were unmarked. (and not erel, though I have seen a real WSS erel officer visor cap, but it was private purchase)

-Gerard

[NTZ]

All the Waffen-SS officer visor caps with "offizier-kleiderkasse" in them, that I have ever seen, were army caps rebuilt as WSS. On the other hand, all the WSS kleiderkasse caps I have ever handled or seen, were unmarked. (and not erel, though I have seen a real WSS erel officer visor cap, but it was private purchase)

-Gerard

Exactly, this sums it up.

[stonemint]

I'm back! Great idea for a thread, NTZ--can you post pix of those pages? The one that just recently blew me away was this in Headgear of Hitler's Germany, Vol 4--A Janke "Dalluge" (I am still out on whether this was a legit wartime maker, although Wilkins lists it as one):

[NTZ]

I have a scanner at my office, I will scan the pages on Monday. Yes the one you just posted is Janke material all the way.

[solo]

Here I am Nick,the Erel caps on Krawczyk on pag 19 and94 I don't like the visors too,seems to be Janke.
Carlo