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**afrikasandman** · 02-24-2007, 12:05 AM

Paul, its all on condition and collor. I had the opportunity about 3 years ago to pick up an officers cap, straight up for 275, but i have seen them go as high as 2000. It just all depends. I would guess upwards of a 1000-1300 for a really nice one. Matt

**Kreager** · 02-24-2007, 01:30 AM

Paul, Check out the collectors guilds website. They have all the prices you need. www.germanmilitaria.com

**RUHL13** · 02-24-2007, 06:36 AM

Collectors guild price, then offer around half. These are dealer prices with mark up. Thats a fair value to pick one up.
But as mentioned before, condition, soutache color all make a difference.
Also no offence here, is it real, be careful with these

Regards,
Gary

**Mark Gibson** · 02-24-2007, 11:27 AM

I actually think that Paul is referring to the M41 field cap, not a sidecap.
The last one that I know of was bought by a friend for about $5000US. This was a very nice transport piped example by Frankenstein. Another gentleman was selling an officers PzGren last year for over $10000 and I'm sure that it did sell. Soutached side caps are a dime a dozen compared to soutached M41's so you can't really use the price of a side cap or a M41 with soutache removed as any kind of guide.

Mark

**Tim O'Keefe** · 02-24-2007, 01:52 PM

Paul

I was just looking into this the other day. I agree with Mark's point about comparisons 'tween soutache sidecaps and M41 without soutache vs those that do have soutache. Also most tropical unissued visor caps would not be considered DAK IMHO. For example all these mint tropical sidecaps on the market currently are not DAK, just tropical...

If you mean tropical visor cap unissued around $1,100 to 1,900 depending on maker, soutache and condition. If you mean DAK visor not less than 3k...
Also agree with Gary as this is one of the most faked caps of all, including ss.

Tim

**Paul l k** · 02-24-2007, 06:42 PM

dak cap help

thank you Mark and Tim,
i think you have helped clarify to others the type of cap i am refering to .. it is in deed the M41 field cap with soutache .

the cap i am hoping to get has been manufactured between 1940 - 1941 and has definately seen service in North Afrika ..

i would still like to hear from other collectors that have been lucky enough to purchase one of these early field caps in the last couple of years ..

thanks also to Matt, Kreager and Gary for your in put

**John Huff** · 02-25-2007, 01:12 AM

I saw one at the SOS from a man I trust implicitly. It was a faded M41 with soutache (can't remember the branch). Price was around $3500

**90th Light** · 02-25-2007, 07:54 AM

Hello to all, we seem to be talking about DAK and tropical like they are two different things. They are not.

The Heer tropical uniform was first manufactured in 1940 and most uniforms from that date seemed to have gone to Afrika but also keep in mind that German toops fighting in the Crimea in 1941 and garrisoned in Greece in 1941 were also receiving supplies. My understanding is that Afrika had priority.

Equally you can get an RB numbered M41 cap which has come from Afrika and was used late 42 to May 43. I have got such caps from NZ Returned Servicemen. Those from Tunisia can have quite a distinctive charm of their own which collectors who have seen such caps will recognise.

A 1940 or 1941 dated M41 tropical cap has a high probability of having come from Afrika and this is what collectors like and pay for. Also these caps are scarse because they were worn into captivity and used by POW's etc.

Other value points which collectors desire is a cap which looks like it was in Afrika. In this league we have the bleached caps. A cap which is bleached and worn with a clear un-faded image of where its removed soutache once was could sell for as much as an M41 cap with soutache esp. if there is a little of the soutache remaining so one can determine which branch of service.

On the point of tropical side-caps please keep in mind that in a DAK (tropical) Soldbuch there are two offical catergories of cap on the tropical equipment page insert to pages 6 & 7 . The first is "Olive sidecap with Panzer soutache" the second "Olive cap with visor" A German solder being issued with a tropical uniform heading to Afrika would have got one or the other. This also gives the tropical Panzer sidecap a special status as the offical tropical side cap. Interestingly this is the most comman side cap brought back by NZ veterans from Afrika so one could argue that this is the true DAK sidecap .

My point is, that all these caps are tropical and were issued to all German soldiers serving on such a warm front in the period 1941 to 1945. A tropical cap which has a clear connection to the DAK and Afrika however are the most highly valued and sought after. This DAK connection ended in May 1943 so this limits the number of possible tropical caps to those made and issued before that date. Such caps are still tropical however and may not have been used in Afrika at all depending on where the original owner served.

With regards, Chris

**milcollector** · 02-25-2007, 02:11 PM

if you have a good M41 tropical visored cap with soutache, then pricing would be up to $10,000 US.

You would not have too much trouble selling for that amount to the right person.
These things are ULTRA rare.

**Tim O'Keefe** · 02-25-2007, 02:37 PM

DAK v tropical

Paul

I hope you can get what your after as it sounds good.

I agree with Chris, another way to make my point is to say, All DAK is tropical, not all tropical is DAK however. As you know the DAK was 5th Lt Div and 15 Pz Div only, maybe 90th Lt Div also, (depends on who you talk to). Any units arriving in Tunisia in late '42-43 were not considered DAK although they were issued with tropical gear.
Most unissued mint tropical gear found in Europe today can not be considered DAK IMHO. Like all those tropical mint "Beehive" sidecaps for example. Thay may have been intended for the DAK however. There are exceptions of course.

Also I believe each DAK soldat received both a side cap and visor cap (and Pith helmet) upon deployment to Africa in 1941 ?

Tim

**Kreager** · 02-25-2007, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by Tim O'Keefe View Post

Paul

I hope you can get what your after as it sounds good.

I agree with Chris, another way to make my point is to say, All DAK is tropical, not all tropical is DAK however. As you know the DAK was 5th Lt Div and 15 Pz Div only, maybe 90th Lt Div also, (depends on who you talk to). Any units arriving in Tunisia in late '42-43 were not considered DAK although they were issued with tropical gear.
Most unissued mint tropical gear found in Europe today can not be considered DAK IMHO. Like all those tropical mint "Beehive" sidecaps for example. Thay may have been intended for the DAK however. There are exceptions of course.

Also I believe each DAK soldat received both a side cap and visor cap (and Pith helmet) upon deployment to Africa in 1941 ?

Tim

Tim, Would you consider a mint OS cap with pink soutache DAK if dated 41-43? Or does mint mean it's not DAK? There could be to many what if's if the solder was given 2caps and a pith, when entering the Africa campaign. So in reality these mint ones could have been issued to the actual solder but never saw duty, could still be mint from being stored?right?

**90th Light** · 02-25-2007, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by Tim O'Keefe View Post

Paul

I hope you can get what your after as it sounds good.

I agree with Chris, another way to make my point is to say, All DAK is tropical, not all tropical is DAK however. As you know the DAK was 5th Lt Div and 15 Pz Div only, maybe 90th Lt Div also, (depends on who you talk to). Any units arriving in Tunisia in late '42-43 were not considered DAK although they were issued with tropical gear.
Most unissued mint tropical gear found in Europe today can not be considered DAK IMHO. Like all those tropical mint "Beehive" sidecaps for example. Thay may have been intended for the DAK however. There are exceptions of course.

Also I believe each DAK soldat received both a side cap and visor cap (and Pith helmet) upon deployment to Africa in 1941 ?

Tim

Hello Tim. I see the point you are making that for something to be DAK it has to be a unit that qualified for the "Afrikakorps" cuff title. Again this reflects a commendable level of reading on your part. Not that all members of such units wore their titles however. I suppose we can draw a distinction between this and "Army Afrika" but to most collectors any German soldier who served in Afrika is viewed as being DAK esp. if they qualified for the "Afrika" cuff title. What you are saying here is not wrong in fact academically you are correct but some may find this distinction too tight.

I have never seen a Soldbuch were a tropical soldier was issued with a sidecap and an M41 cap together. I will ask other collectors here in NZ and would be very interested if and other members reading this have such a Soldbuch. All the ones I have seen were issued one or the other. It is rare to find a sidecap being issued and the only ones I have seen in Soldbuchs, are to personal involved with motor vechicles.

An interesting thing about the "Beehive" find was that this was a distribution center in the South which supplied troops bound for Italy, Afrika, Greece ie Mediterranean. If a cap with soutache comes from the supply depot that supplied the DAK and is dated 1940 to June42, could it not then be considered unissued DAK/tropical ? I have also seen unissued caps which were picked up in Afrika by NZ soldiers from supply trucks or depots which were over-run. These would hard to tell from a "Beehive cap" except that in some cases they are a completely different maker but in other cases they are the same maker.

I suppose this brings us to another value point in the price of these caps. Is an M41 that has been worn worth more than an unissued one ? Hard question but certainly in tropical sidecaps it seems to be. And when it comes to Afrika is an M41 that is well worn/bleached but not worn out worth alot more than a slightly worn one ?

The answer to such questions is found in the perception and taste of the individual collector.

Any way best regards Tim and to others reading this. I look forward to your thoughts, Chris

**Tim O'Keefe** · 02-27-2007, 07:27 PM

tropical v DAK

Kreager & Chris

You both make good observations, thanks.

Today any German Soldat that was in Africa could be considered DAK, just like all Allied Solders who served in Africa could be called "Desert Rats" too.
One could also argue that only a piece that has seen or "could have seen" the African Sun is DAK , everything else is just unissued DAK or tropical in some cases. To me there is a difference between DAK and Panzer Army Afrika.

So there can be "DAK" (salty) and "mint" or "unissued" DAK too, then tropical would cover both, A mint OS pink soutache cap should be looked at very carefully, as lots are post war added soutache IMO. It would fall into the "unissued DAK".

The beehive OS caps have a distinctive fold and look, but orignal DAK sidecaps could look just like this if packed away 60+ years too. Each soldat was issued both visor and sidecap in most cases and would only use one or the other unless he lost one of them.

Chris, I think eack solder was issued a visor and pith helmet (no steel one) but in his "Gefechtsgepack" (assault pack) there was an overseas cap too. ??

For example, the visor was the most used and prefered, after the tropenhelm
lost its popularity in early '41. but among Panzer crewman the sidecap was much more popular instead (hard to work in Pz III with visorcap) except for the tank commander and sometimes gunner who prefered the visor cause of the sun.
Lots of Pz crewmen even kept their black sidecaps and worked in these or tropical sidecap inside the tanks. Only outside would you need the visor from the sun. So this should make the Pz OS cap even more rare today than the visor, as more crewmen wore the sidecaps.
So most DAK wore their visor and packed away the OS cap, except in Pz units it would be the opposite case. There should be more pink unissued visors instead of OS cap still in the world (not the case ).
Which leads me to what I have stated in the past Lots of these original mint pink soutached OS caps are probably PAK (antitank) not Pz as PZ Jaeger also wore the pink piping but would have worn the visor themselves to protect them from outdoor work in the sun.

Just a side note, the pink soutache would have been very common in Libya early '41 as most DAK units members were either Pz or Pak. Very little Inf or ART was landed to support the original 5th Lt Div.

Each person must decide for himself if salty items are worth more than unissued or mint items. In the USMC I could see a set of nice really old Blues selling for more than some fatigues that were in combat and are well worn.
I suppose one could say the same for German dress tunics v combat tunics.
IMO if a piece saw use in its time of origin it is worth more than the same piece that has been stored away for the same amount of time never used.
Maybe not when it comes to used cars however. Some will disagree.

The bleached DAK visor is the most $$$$$, to some however it may not be as valued as unissued DAK $$$$, not to me...the market will decide this anyway...

regards
Tim

**90th Light** · 02-28-2007, 06:15 AM

Hello Tim, I follow what you are saying but like many items of German Militaria one reaches the point of speculation on some questions but you could well be right.

Will be interested to see what others think about the sidecap and M41 billed cap question. My Soldbuchs show them being issued with one or the other but not both. Interested in how you come to the theory that their was a sidecap in the assault pack ? I am not aware of this but I know you do a bit of research so please tell me more.

Have to say that I have soft spot for both un-used tropical caps and well used ones. Both have their charms in different ways and make a nice comparison in any collection.

To be honest, can not get enough of each kind and need more

Best regards, Chris

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