Please Help With DAK Cap Price ..

[Tim O'Keefe]

OS cap in Gefechtsgepack

Chris

I agree, my Pz Jaeger v Pz OS cap theory is less glamorous than some of my other ones...
Jose Figueroa's work Tropical Uniforms vol I page # 127.
Mentions that in Uniformen Markt, issue May 1,'41 listed the items in the "Olivefarbene Tropenkleidung", Jose has the entire DAK kit listed on this page # 127. Thanks Jose!
In note at bottom of page Jose mentions the items included in the assualt bag were mess gear,sewing kit, and overseas cap among other things etc.

Anyone else shed some light on whether a DAK solder received one or two caps?

I too think both DAK and unissued tropical caps have their place in collection.
Best
Tim

[Ralph Heinz]

Pz. sidecap that was actually worn

I've been reading this thread with interest. Being a combat vet, I much prefer well used salty items. To my mind, the mint ones are simply war surplus left over in some warehouse. They are great to represent what an item was like when it was first issued and I can understand and appreciate collector interest in them -- but the problem for me is that today's mint caps just were not worn in any theatre of the war.

Though I admit to having a couple of the unissued tropical sidecaps that came out of the European cache some years ago, the only sidecap I value is shown here. This Karl Kubach 42 dated size 57 cap is well worn and faded. It came out of a veteran's things years ago in the Inland NW area. The rosa soutache is original. The fact that it is scrunched down from use suggests it may have been worn under headphones but then again, it may have been worn by someone in a Panzerjager unit just as easily.

[Ralph Heinz]

Well worn Pz. sidecap

This is how the Pz. sidecap may have appeared when it was in use (shown here on a mannequin). It's unusual to find many war souvenirs from N. Africa among American veterans since so few of them fought there and those who did knew they had a lot more fighting to go through on the continent of Europe and plenty of future opportunities to get souvenirs.

Some American servicemen who did send home souvenirs from N. Africa were Army Aircorps troops stationed in N. Africa to service aircraft flying to Italy on bombing raids. These guys picked up German helmets from graves in Tunisia and mailed them home after the war in N. Africa was over.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Ralph

That is wonderful rare DAK cap, most likely Pz (wrinkles) not PzJg, as PAK would prefer visor over sidecap (for sun )as mentioned in thesis. Thanks.

If 300,000 DAK POW came to States in 1943, why are there not more items here in States ? Did DAK POW take them back home after war ? Also what happened to all those steel helmets after DAK surrender?

And how many caps were issued to each DAK solder in '41, sidecap and/or visor ?

Ralph can we see more of that DAK PZ tunic please ? Stunning...

very best
Tim

[CWP]

I have read in at least one German veteran account that when German POWs arrived at camps in the US, their German uniforms were piled into mounds and burned (!) and they were issued new US-made uniforms.

[NZMark]

Beautiful set-up, Ralph.
Regards,
Mark.

[ROBB]

Ralph I agree with you ,salty every time .Great cap and so nice to see a used one .Rob

[Ralph Heinz]

POWs and their uniforms

Gentlemen,

I corresponded years ago with a number of DAK vets in Germany including an officer whose helmet I own. I asked them specific questions regarding what happened to their tunics and caps. Their response varied based on individual experiences depending on their rank and where they were housed in POW camps.

Some had to surrender their uniforms before being sent back to Europe. If you have a copy of Nazi Prisoners of War in America, you can see a gangplank of German soldiers boarding a ship wearing American khaki with the large black letters 'PW' painted on them. That was one experience.

One dealer in the state of NY told me that piles of German tropical tunics had been at a local dump after the war and locals took some of them home to work around the yard (I've seen several with white house paint on them). They were stripped of insignia. This dealer has gotten some of these tunics out of that area over time.

One Camp Robinson (Western Neb.) POW, Dietrich Kohl who served in Pionier Batailon 900 in the 90th Leichte Div. in N. Afrika wrote me in 1997 that he had sent his tunic, cap, belt, and British wool trousers home in a Red Cross package used by some POWs to send home PX and craft items that they had made while POWs in the US before the war ended. He was lucky -- many others had to turn theirs in including another POW from the same camp (Wolfgang Dorschel who did send back his Soldbuch to Camp Robinson's Museum many years later but stated to me "As far as I can remember the uniforms would be confiscated in Robinson and not returned after the war.")

Kohl donated his tunic, belt and Brit. trousers back to the museum at Camp Robinson in 1997. He had removed the Swastika from his belt buckle, and the Adler and Swastika from his tunic and cap as was ordered by an American general at the end of the war. He lost his bleached field cap and didn't remember how that happened or when.

Kohl wrote "Boarding ships in New York for Europe (mostly another 2 years in England and France !) we were wearing black colored GI -- shirts and trousers with great P and W painted on them."

Still others (Gunter Gassler u. Heinz Hoffer -- two Pz. Leutnants in the 7th Pz. Regt. in Tunisia) wrote they were able to keep their uniforms but wore them out working back in Germany when finally released. Another former POW stated that officers were the only ones where he was at who were allowed to keep their uniforms.

I'll bet if I could turn back the clock to when I was a kid going in Army/Navy Surplus stores in the 1950s, I'd have seen some of these stripped tropical tunics for sale then along with all the US surplus. I have one "second"model trop. tunic with a very faded "POW Camp 6" ink stamped on the back. Undoubedtly others were burned in large numbers-- probably at the discretion of the camp CO.

During the war, US guards traded cigarettes to the POWs for things like caps -- I have a faded Schlesische M40 field cap named inside in ink "Uffz. Vogt" and dated 1941 (soutache removed) that stayed in the US that way (photo below). It had become so worn, that it was resewn along a number of seams while he was a POW -- something that might bother a "purist" but we have to remember these POWs from N. Africa spent years wearing these in the US with no replacements and they did get well worn. Many of the N. Afrika vets were POWs from 1943 till 1947 -- working as "slave labor" in France and England after being sent there from US camps.

One collector told me that years ago, someone came in a militaria show he was at in the South with an arm load of German tropical shirts (for $10)and he bought several which he loaned to me to photograph. One had large PW markings painted on it and was badly worn. These must have come out of some surplus hoard 40 or 50 years later that had never been destroyed.

[Paul l k]

dak cap help

Hello Ralph,
thank you so much for posting this information .. you certainly have shed more light on what actually did happen to so many of these tunics and caps .. it is small wonder that nice original worn examples of these sort after caps are so thin on the ground today !

are you able to post extra images for me of your worn 41 dated cap.
i am sure i wouldn't be the only one hanging out for more ..

thanks

Paul l k.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Ralph

Thanks so much for your very informative posts. Interesting that there seems to be no standard regulation on what to do with the DAK stuff and each POW Camp CO had discretion on this matter, too bad for us nowadays though...
and what of all those helmets in Tunisia left behind?

Tim

[NormandieCamo]

Ralph:

You mentioned owning a helmet which belonged to a DAK officer. Is it a Tropical camo? If yes, could you please post a photo of it?


Merci

[NZMark]

Ralph,
That is a beautiful cap. I'm sure it's in good hands.
Best Regards,
Mark.

[Ralph Heinz]

Tim,
Helmets surrendered in N. Africa may very well have ended up being used as scrap metal. If you have access to Life's Picture History of WWII look at a full page (134) photo that has haunted me since I was a boy. It shows a huge pile of helmets being unloaded from a the back of an American deuce and a half truck. GIs were throwing the helmets into the pile (with 2 in the air) and standing on a pile of Mauser rifles, etc. in the truck.

Many of the helmets had tan paint. There are at least five M42 helmets, 1 WWI helmet, two with nets, one with the army cloth camo cover, one "pith" helmet, one Italian helmet, and even one well bleached M40 billed field cap. The photo isn't attributed to where it was taken but had to have been in the Mediterranean theatre somewhere.

I have a photo of another pile of helmets , many painted tan, and it is attributed to North Africa but it's also copyrighted to Wide World Photos so I may not be able to show it here. There is one single decal M42 helmet in that pile that can be identified as such so these helmets did make it to N. Africa though probably not in great numbers.

Perhaps all that steel was salvaged by shipping it back to the US and melting it down. Who knows? Transport ships arriving in N. Africa for quite awhile bringing supplies for the invasion of Italy would have been returning empty so they may have had the room to ship back these things so near and dear to our collecting hearts. I simply don't know. They may have been melted and made into Sherman tanks.

In years past, I posted photos of a helmet identified to Lt. Graf zu Pappenheim in the 21st Pz. Div. and this may be searched for in past threads somehow. I'll post a photo of one taken off a grave in Tunisia but for some reason I'll have to do it separately as there's no attachments available.

Faintly painted inside the apron at the back is the name "Lt. Zohren" and his FPN which identified the unit as Inf. Regt. 755 in the 334th Div. This unit landed in Tunisia in late 1942 and was virtually wiped out by May 1943. Lt. Zohren was shot in the head with the bullet entering the helmet high on the left side, making a mess inside the helmet and leaving a dent on the inside of the right.

Little is known about this officer as records of his death didn't make it back to Germany to the War Graves Commission. With so many German planes and ships being destroyed over or in the Mediterranean it's not surprising.

[Ralph Heinz]

North Africa helmet

Leutnant Zohren's M35 tan helmet from his grave

[billbert]

I think Ralph is "dead on" with his thoughts on helmets to the smelter in the USA..I believe we vacuumed up much of the captured german DAK equipment for return to USA.. I m sure a lot of it was taken for evaluation and distribution as educational material for our rapidly expanding armed forces..True or not I ve head we thought the steel quality in helmets to be superior quality..In the northeastern USA someone was having helmets bulk shipped right after the war for scrap value..An LONG TIME collector as a young lad appropriated some wonderful german weapons(1 of each so to speak) from the railyards later in war..Large shipment headed for the steel mills..Billbert