Officers Wool M43 Cap

[B. N. Singer]

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[B. N. Singer]

I ran across a nice photo of an officers M43 hat with embroidered trap except in field grey....WR Jim[/QUOTE]

Great picture, thanks for posting it! I know of an example that is almost identical to that one.

B. N. Singer[/QUOTE]

[djpool]

Great picture, thanks for posting it! I know of an example that is almost identical to that one.

B. N. Singer

[/quote]

What intrigues me is the insignia. I think thats the key to determining if the hats good is the insignia, since they seem to be tied together. I would love to see a picture of the insignia on the hat you mentioned for comparison. For that matter if any reader has an example it would be greatly appreciated if you post it. I checked several references eg Wilkens, Bender and I can't find an example thats close to the field grey example I posted. In fact the green trap appears to be the most similar.

You commented earlier that the following bothered you about the dark green trap " The embroidery, eagles body and wings, peculiarly small cockade “bulls eye” made from “washed out, pinkish red” thread. "

Looking at the wartime pic that trap appears to have the same strange wings, body and small red bulls eye.

I played around a little with the picture and proportional the size of the bulls eye is close to the controversial trap.

May not change any opinions but it at least makes for a good discussion. WR jim

[B. N. Singer]

What intrigues me is the insignia. I think thats the key to determining if the hats good is the insignia, since they seem to be tied together...
Looking at the wartime pic that trap appears to have the same strange wings, body and small red bulls eye.
WR jim[/QUOTE]




I disagree.

B. N. Singer

[djpool]

I disagree.

B. N. Singer[/quote]

I can live with that. Until someone posts a contemperary picture of the exact same trap in field grey wool, its difficult to draw any definitive conclusions. But for sh.ts and grins I did print off the picture of the wartime insignia, so I could determine the percentage of red/black and white used in the cockade. I compared that to the dark green wool trap, a bevo Panzer Trap, green bevo trap,wool trap in Wilkens book (see below)and a tropical trap. This is how I came about my percentages. I measured the width of the cockade and determined how much of each color made up the total width. I then divided the total measurement of each color by the total width of the cockade and converted it to a %.

TYPE OF TRAP % BY COLOR USED IN EACH COCKADE

WOOL DARK GREEN RED 27% BLACK 33.3% WHITE 44%
WOOL FLD GREY (picture)RED 26.9% BLACK 30.7% WHITE 42.3%
----------------------------------------------------------------
(textbook)
TROPICAL BEVO RED 34.78% BLACK 34.78% WHITE 30.43%
GREEN BEVO RED 38.8% BLACK 27.7% WHITE 33.3%
PZ BEVO RED 38.8% BLACK 22.2% WHITE 38.8%
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Wool Wilkens RED 29.16% BLACK 33.3% WHITE 37.5%

As far as I can tell the size and percentage of each color used varied a lot. However the percentage(size) of the Red bulleye on the wool examples is a lot less than that used on the 3 textbook examples.

I'm here to learn so I welcome any discussion or studies on the size of cockades/red bulleyes.

WR jim

[Glenn McInnes]

I can live with that. Until someone posts a contemperary picture of the exact same trap in field grey wool, its difficult to draw any definitive conclusions. But for sh.ts and grins I did print off the picture of the wartime insignia, so I could determine the percentage of red/black and white used in the cockade. I compared that to the dark green wool trap, a bevo Panzer Trap, green bevo trap,wool trap in Wilkens book (see below)and a tropical trap. This is how I came about my percentages. I measured the width of the cockade and determined how much of each color made up the total width. I then divided the total measurement of each color by the total width of the cockade and converted it to a %.

WR jim[/quote]



Jim,

The above insignia that you show looks to be the one pictured on the 43 cap in the assault gun photo.



Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

Your most recently pictured close up of the embroidered on wool trapezoid (from "Wilkens book" ??) does compare quite accurately to the period photo of the AG officer you posted (again, an outstanding picture).

However, the difference between that trapezoid and the insignia on the officers hat in "question" is (to me) apparent. Note the eagle's head, body, talons and wing features. A similarity can almost be seen in the "wreath" around the swastika on the insignia most recently shown (Wilkens book) and the period picture of the AG officer. Also the cockade difference, when studied in person, is striking.

The Officers example that I referred to (my post #109) could be convincingly presented as "the exact same hat" being worn by the AG officer in your picture. Nothing at all like the insignias found on All the officer hats that were the original topic of this thread. This was certainly taken into consideration when I formulated my post #97 of 7-18-06

B. N. Singer

[djpool]

Your most recently pictured close up of the embroidered on wool trapezoid (from "Wilkens book" ??) does compare quite accurately to the period photo of the AG officer you posted (again, an outstanding picture).

However, the difference between that trapezoid and the insignia on the officers hat in "question" is (to me) apparent. Note the eagle's head, body, talons and wing features. A similarity can almost be seen in the "wreath" around the swastika on the insignia most recently shown (Wilkens book) and the period picture of the AG officer. Also the cockade difference, when studied in person, is striking.

The Officers example that I referred to (my post #109) could be convincingly presented as "the exact same hat" being worn by the AG officer in your picture. Nothing at all like the insignias found on All the officer hats that were the original topic of this thread. This was certainly taken into consideration when I formulated my post #97 of 7-18-06

B. N. Singer

Mr Singer,

I agree 100% that the trap in the picture and the dark green ones aren't the same. The trap from the Wilkens book is fairly close to the one in the period pic. I think the dimensions of the cockade and swastika/wreath are almost identical. I think the eagles are different, with the period pic one being wider and longer.

I converted the pictures into negatives which made it easier to measure. I set the width of each wing at 15mm to establish a base for comparison. Heres how they compared.(see below). I measured each trap separately then merged them into one pic. So don't get excited if the width of both wings don't look the same.

Later on I'll compare the dark green trap. I'm just interested to see if its dimensions are in line with non controversial embroidered traps.

I have yet to find another style of embroidered trap on dark green to compare with.The few period pics I've come across are just too small to determine if the traps are bevo or embroidered.

WR Jim

[djpool]

here are some comparisons vs the dark green trap.Again the measurements are not for the actual item. I set each wing at 15mm so I could have a base. So you really can't compare the insignia in terms of exact measurements.But you can get an idea of proportions.

Dark Green vs wartime pic

[djpool]

Dark green vs Wilkens (on bottom).

[Glenn McInnes]

Here is another example but with black cotton lining,what appears to be a different type wool and partial leather sweatband that has torn away. Certainly different than the others posted in this thread.

Insignia is machine sewn (don't know if the lining has been opened)

I really like the "look" of this one.


Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

Here is another example but with black cotton lining,what appears to be a different type wool and partial leather sweatband that has torn away. Certainly different than the others posted in this thread.

Insignia is machine sewn (don't know if the lining has been opened)

I really like the "look" of this one.
Glenn

Looks quite similar to the others to me, crown piping, button hole placement etc. I would still pass.

B. N. Singer

[Glenn McInnes]

I guess Bryon I was just looking at the lining material. This is the first one I have seen using black. I think the piping is the same as the others but not sure from these photos.



Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

Hi Glenn,

I have handled several examples with the black lining and I will say the material is quite convincing. Still, since my last post on this thread I have had the chance to handle four (4) additional ones ALL just about the same. Somewhat unusual for an "original" officers M43!

Bryon

[Glenn McInnes]

Hi Glenn,

I have handled several examples with the black lining and I will say the material is quite convincing. Still, since my last post on this thread I have had the chance to handle four (4) additional ones ALL just about the same. Somewhat unusual for an "original" officers M43!

Bryon

Hi Bryon,

That does seem to be unusual.. I wonder how many of these things are around??



Glenn