Michael Wittman Ville Bocage

[Lloyd I.]

Lets change this topic to a " knocking Michael Wittmann post " . Bloody hell we all know the facts , well some of us do anyway .
I have met many former men from Michael Wittmann's unit plus Michael's wife and sister Anne , so I guess I have a little insight into Michael's life .

The simple fact is VB is not what it has been made out to be. The truth seldom is appreciated for what it is. If anything the British regrouped within the same day, cost 1st Kompanie and Panzer Lehr that afternoon, fully recovered in just 2 days then failed in every single aspect to capitalize on any of their gains. That is why they sacked leadership. NOT Wittmann.

Why did you meet them? Are you a researcher or historian? What was the motivator for you? I have a genuine desire to know why you would want to meet with Wittmann's wife and sister or his fellow Panzermänner. How sad for that poor widow to have lost her husband, have to bury him decades later then be called on to have to deal with his death over and over. To sit there and explain the real Michael she loved. If not for research then your motivation isn't clear. How many other German widows have you spent time with? Or is Wittmann's widow the only one to deserve such a knock on the door from you?

I feel no motivator to defend this mans honor. I will not call him "hero" As a researcher and writer I am looking at facts. He is just 1 soldier among in excess of 21,000 German military personnel of World War II buried in Normandy. Singling this 1 man out among all that sacrifice is to me the saddest thing. It is however typical of the hagiography surrounding him and other men in the Waffen-SS.

Why does fact bother you to the point of high drama? Wittmann factually contributed to a near 30% combat loss rate in total number of Tigers deployed Normandy.

[MikeP]

Couple years ago, a college I attended before my service decided to memorialize the guys Killed in Vietnam. One got a MOH.

The other, a good friend, received a SS.

Point is, they dug out his wife at the time, who had moved on and remarried long ago.

She and her husband showed up and were very gracious, but you could see the bloody scabs on reopened wounds.

So many enthusiasts or ghouls are totally insensitive to what some folks or vets consider private or best forgotten.

[Gran Sasso]

Here is the outcome of Reckless thinking. Open field, exposed flank and no support. In VB he only lost the Tiger I.

Wittmann's action on this day cost him his life and the total loss of an additional 4 Tigers of Schwere Panzer Abteilung or now, 28% of total combat strength. I'd say that's pretty impressive for one man to achieve.

He had no choice - he RECEIVED orders to attack, not GAVE them, thats a big difference... So not his fault.

Being at the spot you should know the germans had no choice to attack elsewhere, in more covered area.

Also, they didnt knew / had false infos how far forward the enemy already was.

The given name "Totalize" to the allied attack tells already by itself, that the germans had no chance to win or survice in that area.

[Gran Sasso]

Why does fact bother you to the point of high drama? Wittmann factually contributed to a near 30% combat loss rate in total number of Tigers deployed Normandy.

As you dislike Wittmanns and the germans action that day so much - tell us what they should have done IYO? Just sit there and watch the enemy pass by...?

[Gran Sasso]

Ha! The 12th.SS would not have been taken 1 month earlier with or without Wittmann's performance at VB. The HJ managed being an effective blocking force at Caen very well on their own. I do not share in the belief that the allies could have encircled them. 12th SS-HJ was very adept at putting up a good fight. Especially early on I think that might have actually helped them to solidify quicker than they did.

Thats not my opinion, but of german vets, who had not only taken part in the normandy battles, but also studied the battles after the war - so if you wanna laugh at them, go on

[Chris Boonzaier]

Why does fact bother you to the point of high drama? Wittmann factually contributed to a near 30% combat loss rate in total number of Tigers deployed Normandy.

That is an interesting point... maybe there is a difference here of being a fighter, and a commander.

As a fighter you have the objective of being aggresive and destroying the enemy.

As a commander you need to analyse if the actions gains will be worth the losses.

Maybe this is a simple case of the "Peter principle"

"In an organizational structure, the assessment of the potential of an employee for a promotion is often based on their performance in the current job which results eventually in their being promoted to their highest level of competence and potentially then to a role in which they are not competent, referred to as their "level of incompetence"."

Maybe he was an excellent fighter... who had simply had one promotion too many...

Happens every day.

[Schnellmeyer]

Well put rebeldevil89, it's good to see that fellow tankers understand what Wittmann did in VB on that day .
LioydI , to answer some of your questions . I met the veterans to get a better understanding of the tank engagements that took place in Normandy after the landings . Up to only a few years ago it was impossible to get good books on the subject from the German point of view . That is why in the 1980's I started going to Germany to get a more balanced account of events . Yes , you could say I am a sort of a researcher/historian as I have help other authors in the past with material and photos for their books , at present I am almost finished a book of my own .
My motivation is to get a balance account of events and meet and talk to the vets that were there at the time , how else can stories be written ???
And NO , nobody got knocks on the door from me , any people who I visited in Germany were more than happy to allow me into their homes . I am sure as a author you have also done the same when doing research ?
You are right in saying Wittmann was only one of possibly 21,000+ Germans killed in Normandy but he was also one of the most highly decorated soldiers to fall in combat there . Maybe this factor also is why he is so talked about .
I feel no need to defend Wittmann's honor as i did not know him but some people have posted stupid comments here which a child would not do .
All I do know is from speaking to vets who served with Wittmann is they held him in very high regard which soldiers do not do unless one has earned this honor .

[Lloyd I.]

As you dislike Wittmanns and the germans action that day so much - tell us what they should have done IYO? Just sit there and watch the enemy pass by...?

In this you are falsch.

I do not like dislike Wittmann. When your relatives, including an RKT-DKGT served during this time it makes for an interesting life. I was not the one to call him a Nazi Scumbag. In another 200 years I'm sure the laity will still disregard ALL the higher scoring German tank aces for this 1 singular man.

Wittmann's fellow service members and many tacticians have done all the speaking already

Wittmann could have capitalized far greater at VB had he chosen first to alert his unit. His attack was piecemeal, immediate attack, a product of his W-SS training. The Germans would've held far longer and achieved a much larger victory than a localized one that slipped from them

Chris, very well put. As a former leader of combat men and manager in the private sector you have hit the nail on the head. Some men you cannot manage, some men you have to manage daily and others require very little management. Wittmann was very much the warrior yet he reached that zenith and was then placed above that. Wittmann is the perfect example of the employee who goes off the reservation all the time. Capable of success, usually competent, often cocky but eventually guaranteed to cost you greatly.

[Lloyd I.]

Schnellmeyer, I understand completely now and thank you for taking the time to explain. Yes as an author it is important to understand the deeper context to what was typically a one sided story world wide.

There were some excellent postwar unit histories written in German that came out in the 50s. Most of the world would not have seen these due to language barriers or unwilling publishers. The vast majority are still to date untranslated. The earliest German version of events was published in 1947.

Another little known book printed in the United States is the unpublished stories from Yank magazine. The copyright is in the 50s. This dog eared gem repeatedly mentions the sort of out of hand killing of German PWs for things like simply not keeping up after capture. I'd say very early for that type of admission of a war crime. It would take Stephen Ambrose or to an extent Steven Spielberg to get many to understand that WW2 was never as clear cut as our history books or teachers presented it to us as.

Sad that you had to wait until the 1980s to get to another side of events

The material was actually always there.

Far richer though would be your experience. I hope your book does well.

[Lloyd I.]

He had no choice - he RECEIVED orders to attack, not GAVE them, thats a big difference... So not his fault.

the germans had no choice to attack elsewhere, in more covered area.

they didnt knew / had false infos how far forward the enemy already was.

The given name "Totalize" to the allied attack tells already by itself, that the germans had no chance to win or survice in that area.

The operation name of Totalize means nothing. It would be interesting to know what your take on Goodwood would be....they wanted to start fires?

Here is my map overlay using an RAF photo and Google Maps for the then & now. These are from my unpublished book. You can see....he had choices in areas with treelines and roadways. Had he driven into Gaumesnil on the main road he would likely have had greater chances of survival versus his choosen path of open field.

[Lloyd I.]

Another from my unpublished book.

You can see in this RAF photo of his knocked out Tiger he had fortified structures he could have hugged or used as cover.

You can continue to drum up he had no choice however the fact is, as the commander that day he had ample choices.

In June of 1944 Wittmann was the Commander of 2./Kompanie sSSPzAbt 101. In July, he took over as commander of sSSPzAbt 101.

[novedvory]

the 007 spot today
007 spot.jpg
All the tigers in the field have had their tracks removed and used for refurbished some Allied tanks by adding a supplementary frontal armour !!
The farmer (user of the field where the destroyed 007 stayed) said that he have had time to have a look during 2 months from the end of august 1944 on the wreck before that one was evacuated !
He affirmed (until he passed away) that NO direct hits were visible on the hull but only a very big hole between the rear base of the turret and the engine bay surely due to a Typhoon rocket !
No one claimed the Wittmann's death until the crew corpses were discovered in the 80's?
During the day where the 007 was hit, 3 Typhoons were shot in the same sector and unfortunately the pilots didn't have time to make their mission report of the day !

[Willi Z.]

the 007 spot today
[ATTACH]2921866[/ATTACH]
All the tigers in the field have had their tracks removed and used for refurbished some Allied tanks by adding a supplementary frontal armour !!
The farmer (user of the field where the destroyed 007 stayed) said that he have had time to have a look during 2 months from the end of august 1944 on the wreck before that one was evacuated !
He affirmed (until he passed away) that NO direct hits were visible on the hull but only a very big hole between the rear base of the turret and the engine bay surely due to a Typhoon rocket !
No one claimed the Wittmann's death until the crew corpses were discovered in the 80's?
During the day where the 007 was hit, 3 Typhoons were shot in the same sector and unfortunately the pilots didn't have time to make their mission report of the day !

Interesting information. Thanks.

[novedvory]

Interesting information. Thanks.

divers livre (13).jpg
one of the parts who survived the 007 !
but there are some others in private collections

[S Spade]

During the day where the 007 was hit, 3 Typhoons were shot in the same sector and unfortunately the pilots didn't have time to make their mission report of the day !

2 were flak victims and the pilots killed. The third was lost to an engine failure.
1st lost 10:45
2nd at 16:15
third at 20:30.
They have no connection to Wittmann's demise at 12:45