Michael Wittman

[translator]

I'll "stir up" the waters further when I get to my source material this evening; I have photos showing Wittmann's Tiger and there is no evidence (that I recall) it was hit by tank fire.

[J Melvin]

The photo didn't post

[Mike C]

Hello All,

Have to side with Michael Kenny on this one - the death of Wittman is well documented in Agte's biography. Not surprising that it is hard to tell who took the Tiger out - it was blown to pieces when its ammo went up.

And yes, a high velocity 17-pounder, firing from the flank, will take out a Tiger at close and medium range - easily.

Cheers,

Mike

[michael kenny]

Photo not photos

There is only ONE photo of 007 taken by a Frenchman long after the action. It is impossible to see any penetrations anywhere. To advance any other 'theory' other than the Firefly kill you have to IGNORE the testimony of the German survivors. There is not one single shred of evidence to support any explanation other than the Northants Yeomanry claim.

[translator]

That's the photo to which I'm referring. There is no evidence of tank fire damage. What we have, then, are so-called "eyewitness" accounts, and these accounts differ. Therefore, there is no conclusive evidence as to how Michael Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed.

[Mike C]

Hello,

Yes, it is hard to ascribe damage. But what you do have are War Diary entries for both the British and Canadian units that engaged German armoured forces on this date (e.g. Sherbrooke Hussars, 2d Canadian Armoured Brigade, Record Group 24, Public Archives of Canada). Note that these diaries were written up on/about the date in question - before the identity of the Tiger commander was known. This would seem to argue for at least the relative honesty of their claims. Conversely, I know of no claim by Allied tactical air forces that they engaged German armour in this vicinity. And frankly, the odds of hitting a moving Tiger with a Typhoon/Tempest rocket, make the Firefly look very, very good.

All the best,

Mike

[michael kenny]

Evidence is there for those willing to look

And I would not call first-hand eye wittness testimony of the men who served with and knew Wittmann as 'so called '. As it is stated that 007 was hit from the front how can you claim a photo of the rear shows no tank fire damage?. As it seems you have no EVIDENCE to back any of your claims what is the point of posts?. Let me make it easy for you, give me the name or ID of ANYONE who can provide anything factual that would cast doubt on the Firefly version. Let me warn you nothing so far posted on any site has anything other than conjecture on these 'claims'. If you are using them you are wasting your time.

[translator]

My irate British friend: you need to calm down just a trifle, sir. As I stated earlier, I will publish in this thread the evidence I have regarding this event, and it will be left up to the individual reader to decide "the truth". I have no particular axe to grind with you, and I am not a "Tiger groupie" as has been implied. While I can understand your resentment at the point I am trying to make, being from the North of England yourself, nevertheless I plan to persist and publish what I have. This issue is one of the many in history that does not necessarily have a "black and white" answer, no matter how much one may wish it to be so.

[magprint]

Wittmann Swords

*

[michael kenny]

Dr Rabe

Well then, what do we make of the account of SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Dr. Rabe. He was there on 8/8/44 and actually saw what became of 007. When he was 250-300 meters from 007 he saw the turret fly off the tank. Or Hans Hoflinger who was in another of the Tigers and heard Wittmanns last radio message, cut off mid sentence. Hoflinger baled out of his own burning Tiger and saw Wittmanns Tiger stationary near him, STILL WITH ITS TURRET BUT WITH IT DISPLACED TO THE RIGHT. The only 'evidence' of the Typhoon claim is from the man who took the only photo of 007 long after the action. He said he THOUGHT (notice that this French farmer is now giving us his opinion) that a large hole in the Tiger must have been made by a rocket. That one opinion is the SOLE basis of the Tyhoon kill claim. Every other version of the rocket claim used in a book since then uses this version(or a corruption of it) as it basis. I doubt you will be able to provide any source for any eye witness who saw a rocket or any Pilot who says he fired one or even any record whatsoever from any Squadrons who were in action in that area at that time. I will advise you that extensive research on just this Typhoon claim in primary RAF records has not found a single piece of evidence that confirms it. Please note that this man took several photos of 007 but 'lost' them over the years and now admits that he knows the Tiger was not in the camouflage scheme he said it was all those years ago. He still has parts of 007 he salvaged from the wreck. I know all these claims and counter claims and having read nearly every description of Wittmanns demise and his actions at Villers Bocage in books or on the net can only marvel how so well documented actions like Villers on 13/6/44 or Wittmanns death on 8/8/44 have become so distorted as to bear little resemblance to reality. Sloppy research and lazy Authors have combined to elevate fairly routine actions to the height of absurdity.

[Jon]

Wittmann's Death...

Whoa! Sorry for starting this! Ahhh...isn't this a fun hobby?! Hey, a little discussion is good once in a while!

Anyways, I have to agree with Michael Kenny on this as well. All we have to do is look at the knocked out Tiger, #007. Ok, here goes, IF it was a Typhoon rocket, which has a HE warhead, then would it not damage the rear end of the Tiger quite a bit?

But look at it, there is just (as Serge Verin himself said) a penetration hole in the engine deck. If a Typhoon rocket would have hit it, it would have completely destroyed the entire engine area. Also, the storage bin is still intact on the rear of the turret, would not a Typhoon rocket have damaged that as well?

It looks to me like the Tiger was knocked out by a High-Velocity Armour Piercing round, something like the round fired from a 17 Pounder. A Tyhoon rocket is not a high-velocity armour piercing round, and even if one hit the Tiger, the damage is not consistent with what one would find from a round such as that. The damage is consistent, however, with a round from a 17 pounder, which penetrated and ignited the ammo and fuel.

Just my observations, for what it's worth.

Cheers,

Jon

[translator]

All,

I promised to respond, and here's my response. This is not to fan the flames of indignation (frankly, I don't care who killed Michael Wittmann) but simply to show a different side to this story. My friends on this forum have already refuted M. Varin's testimony, but then again several of the supposed "eyewitness" accounts to the destruction of Michael Wittmann's Tiger have also been questioned. Enough said; having presented this I will bow out of the discussion:

"Until 1983, the destruction of Wittmann's Tiger was a mystery even to the crews of SSPzAbt 101. Many different units claimed to have destroyed Wittmann’s Tiger in a "Firefly Ambush", including the 1st Polish Armored Division, 4th Canadian Armored Division (Canadian Shermans supposedly surrounded and shot Wittmann's Tiger to pieces) or 33rd British Independent Armored Brigade. In the memoirs of a former member (Mr.F.R.) of SSPzAbt 101, the official version at the time stated that Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by an airplane bomb. Both presented a picture of Wittmann's Tiger without its turret with the gun barrel placed on the hull which in fact is the picture of SS-Untersturmführer Alfred Günther's Tiger destroyed by an airplane bomb at Evrecy. Along with those two versions, some claims were made that units which were not even present in the area at the time were responsible for destroying Wittmann's Tiger. All of these versions were proven wrong by Mr.Serge Varin who found Tiger #007 in 1945. Mr.Varin was interested in this tank because its turret was torn away from the hull. Varin examined Wittmann's Tiger and noticed that it was not penetrated by any shells fired at it during the fighting. The only damage to the hull was a big hole in the rear, near the engine deck. After further examination Mr.Varin concluded that the impact came from the air. A rocket had struck the Tiger's rear deck (made of 25mm thick armor), penetrated the air intakes and exploded; this caused an explosion in the engine compartment and fighting compartment which ignited the stored ammunition. The second explosion instantly killed the entire crew and blew the turret into the air. Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by a rocket fired from a Royal Air Force Hawker "Typhoon" MkIB attack aircraft. Typhoons were armed with HE (High-explosive) rockets and took a heavy toll of German tanks during the Normandy battles (for example, on 8 August 1944 Typhoons destroyed 135 German tanks among which was Tiger #007)."

[Jon]

Achtung Panzer site...

A quote similar to that can be found on the Achtung Panzer site in the Wittmann Bio. You will notice that there is more afterwards where it is said.."Finally it was proven..."

I would also like to note that Allied aircraft did not knock out 135 German tanks on August 8. It was more like 135 German tanks in ALL of the Normandy campaign. The destructive power of Allied aircraft has been much exaggerated. They were more of a danger to trucks, softskin vehicles and supply routes.

Anyway, you add the diary and reports from The Northamps along with the accounts from sSSPzAbt 101 survivors, along with all the evidence and you can see what really happened. I believe that Serge just assumed that the shot came from the air.

So, since this is the Achtung Panzer Forum, here is a quote from the Achtung Panzer site:

"Until 1983, the destruction of Wittmann's Tiger was an mystery even for crews of sSSPzAbt 101. Many sources say that it was destroyed by the "Firefly Ambush", but different units claimed to ambush and destroy Wittmann's Tiger, including those of the either 1st Polish Armored Division, 4th Canadian Armored Division (Canadian Shermans supposedly surrounded and shot Wittmann's Tiger to pieces) or 33rd British Independent Armored Brigade. In the memoirs of a former member Mr.F.R of sSSPzAbt 101, official version at the time stated that Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by an airplane bomb. Both presented a picture of Wittmann's Tiger without its turret with the gun barrel placed on the hull which in fact is the picture of SS-Untersturmführer Alfred Günther's Tiger from 3rd Kompanie of sSSPzAbt 101 of destroyed by an airplane bomb at Evrecy. Along with those two versions, some claims were made that units, which were not even present in the area at the time, were responsible for destroying Wittmann's Tiger. In 1945, Mr.Serge Varin found Tiger #007. Mr.Varin was interested in this tank because its turret was teared away from the hull. Mr.Varin examined Wittmann's Tiger and noticed that it was not penetrated by any shells fired at it during the fighting. The only damage to the hull was a big hole in the rear, near the engine deck.

After further examination Mr.Varin concluded that the impact came from the air. The rocket hit Tiger's rear deck (made of 25mm thick armor), penetrated the air intakes and exploded causing the explosion in the engine compartment and fighting compartment which ignited the stored ammunition. The second explosion instantly killed the entire crew and blew off the turret into the air. According to Varin, Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by a rocket fired from a Royal Air Force Hawker "Typhoon" MkIB - attack aircraft. Typhoons were armed with HE (High-explosive) rockets and took heavy tow of German tanks during the Normandy battles (for example on August 8th of 1944, Typhoons destroyed 135 German tanks and among those Tiger #007).

Finally, it was proven that Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by fire from tanks of "A" Squadron of Northamptonshire Yeomanry. British Firefly crew observed advancing Tigers and opened fire at when Tigers were some 800m away. According to original War Diary of "A" Squadron, at 12:20, 3 Tigers were moving towards the Squadron and were destroyed at 12:40, 12:47 and 12:52 without any losses. After the first Tiger was destroyed at 12:40, second one returned fire but was hit and blew up in a loud explosion. Following that, third Tiger was knocked out after receiving two hits. Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed as second at 12:47 by British Sherman VC "Firefly" commanded by Sergeant Gordon (gunner - Trooper Joe Ekins) from 3rd Platoon, "A" Squadron, 33rd Armored Brigade of 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry. British Sherman VC "Firefly" armed with 17 pounder gun was capable of penetrating Tiger's armor at range of 800m. The force of explosion blew off the turret, which landed upside down away from the hull. Wittmann did not know that British had Firefly in the area and felt confident in attacking their position with his Tigers, otherwise he would take different approach to the whole attack. After Wittmann failed to return from the battle, search for him by the members of the 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" and his battalion took place during the day and on the night of 8/9th."

I hope this helps!

Cheers,

Jon

[jeremiahcable]

Wartime Burial

Correct me if I am wrong, and I may be, but weren't Wittmann's remains and the remains of his crew buried next to a road shortly after the battle? I seem to recall that they were found after the war by a crew widening the road and that Herr Wittmann's false front teeth from "eating" part of his Stug on the eastern front in an accident were instrumental in identifying the remains. I could be thinking of someone else, but I keep thinking of Michael.

Best Wishes,
J.C.

If the Canadians buried him, it is possible some of his badges or even his RK could have survived the blast and been picked up. Just food for thought.

[Adrian]

Hello Jeremiah,

I also heard this story about Wittmanns remains, apparently some French civilians retrieved his body and those of his crew and buried them near the wreck of his tank. In 1986 (I think?) some workmen who were doing some kind of roadworks discovered the burial and informed the authorities who identified Wittmans remains from his dental records and also found an I.D. tag from a member of the crew.
The remains were indistiguishable from each other so they were all interred at La Cambe cemetery in normandy in one grave.
Interesting point though about his decorations - wonder what did happen to them?? Anyone know?? Does anyone own a piece of Wittmann memorabilia??
Also what about his family, is his wife still alive??
If anyone has or knows where I can find an exact location on where his tank met its fate, I would be interested to know

Best regards,
Adrian.