Silver L 14

[Ronny.R]

This might be of interest http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=L22
Look at the DN fake.

One thing that’s bugs me with the facts that the Glaser dies was destroyed
is that the Souval copys and Glaser badges share one small die flaw.
This die flaw should not be there if Souval made new dies

I have two Souval copy’s one is 23,6g. W 36,37. H 43,84 and 2,81 thick at the edge
Copy nr: 2 are denazified but are heavier 26,4g. W 36,38. H 43,91 and 3,38 thick

My L22 badge is 22,3g. W 36,34. H 43,83 and 2,64 thick
(who knows it might be a Souval too) That’s scarry..

Cheers,
Ronny

[norge]

Hi Gents. Nice my badge started an informative discussion. I will try to take some better close ups and messure it later on. Thank you so far. Best, norge

[Dennis P]

I continue to follow this thread with interest, and many good points have been made. I am grateful for the time members are devoting to an in depth look at this particular badge.

Hans, I had not made the connection with the post-war Souval obverse, and I appreciate seeing that comparison made.

I am curious about the hair line flaw presence to this badge as well. As to Ronny's last point.....I'm not sure how to respond, given that, examples of "accepted" L/22s abound, and there are known fakes of these as well....ie they would be fakes of fakes.

I still find it interesting that so few of these "L/22 like" L/14 examples appear to be out there. The few I have seen have variant setups and differing metal materials in use (not exactly a production run of any consistency). Andreas and Mike K own two with a common setup type, and Sven owns one with a setup similar to the one that started this thread.

Dennis

[BassD]

In the documents i have Souval was not listed as an official marker for woundbadges. That says only that Souval (based on the informations i have) was not a firm who produce for the Präsidialkanzlei. I can not say if Souval produce woundbadges as a member of the LDO

And yes, it is right. Glaser was totally bombed out.

Gruß

Basti

[Hans N]

I never said that Souval didn´t make WB´s, all i said was that Souval is not a known war time maker of WB´s.

However we do know that Souval did make postwar WB´s with a L22 obverse design, and that´s a fact.

And we do know that Souval had a habit to mark their combat awards with their initials (R.S.), has anyone seen a WB with their typical R.S. marking on the reverse?

[Andreas Klein]

Is it safe that Souval made a L22 marked badge?

If we talk about so called Souval copies we should take into account that Souval didn't start a postwar production to foul nowdays collectors. They started a "normal" postwar production for the souvenir market.

I'm not sure if Souval ever copied a maker mark from another firm. Imo they always used their own L/58, RS or nothing.

We believe in Souval copies but i would say that this is our own made problem and wasn't caused directly by Souval.

[Hans N]

If we talk about so called Souval copies we should take into account that Souval didn't start a postwar production to foul nowdays collectors. They started a "normal" postwar production for the souvenir market.

Foul or not is not the issue here. The fact that they did produce awards after the war still doesn´t make them war time ones and as such they are not originals = copys. And it doesn´t change a thing if they did it as souvenirs or as replacements for the veterans...

I'm not sure if Souval ever copied a maker mark from another firm. Imo they always used their own L/58, RS or nothing.

Nobody did say they did copy markermarks of other firms...

[Andreas Klein]

Imo it is an issue because we "believe" that the badge which started the thread is a copy because of the fact that we have some equal looking Souval souvenir badges.

If we now come to the agreement that Souval didn't copy maker markings from other firms than the L14 at the beginning is not automatical a fake badge because with it's marking it came out of a die which can't be linked to Souval without further research.

[Hans N]

I only said that nobody has said that Souval made copys of other firms markermarks but the badge posted by norge in this thread indicates that they might have done just that.

The Souval fake Wb´s has to my knowledge have only had the L22 obverse design which clearly the L/14 marked one in this thread posted by norge has as well. Friedrich Orth had his own design on his WB´s, just look at the BWB they made. There are no other L/14 BWB´s with another design, there are not to this date known if Souval ever made fake BWB´s either... but who knows with all the unmarked types out there. But i do know that there are no exact match among the BWB´s to the L22 design.

Like always when it comes to you and your discussions Andreas your twisting and turning as you go along, funny since your the one that has asked for evidence in documents in the past.

But can you deny that a L/14 WB with the L22 obverse design is suspicious after the known fact that Souval fake WB´s also has this design without the usual twisting and turning?

[Andreas Klein]

Well, Hans ...

since i studied alot of wartime paperwork together with Basti in the last 2 years only to see how less we know about what really happend in that time on the maker side i have no problem to "twist and turn" before i shout to fast "i don't like it" and post badges from i maker i know nothing from.

Perhaps the L14 is questionable at the moment but that's far away from beeing a copy.

If you start to compare the badges together you will see some minor differences between them so that are only on the first view a 100% match.

The detailing of the L14 badge for example is in some parts better than the L22 and vice versa. Shared design from the same engraver but different dies? --- i don't know it.

If "twist and turn" is another description of acedemic research work than i'm happy to twist and turn.

So long ...

[Hans N]

since i studied alot of wartime paperwork together with Basti in the last 2 years only to see how less we know about what really happend in that time on the maker side i have no problem to "twist and turn" before i shout to fast "i don't like it" and post badges from i maker i know nothing from.

Perhaps the L14 is questionable at the moment but that's far away from beeing a copy.

Nobody here has called the dubious L/14 that started this thread a fake or a copy.

All i did was saying that i don´t like these and stated my case in why by posting the Souval fake i have... which i obviously are not entitled to by the looks of it

If you start to compare the badges together you will see some minor differences between them so that are only on the first view a 100% match

The detailing of the L14 badge for example is in some parts better than the L22 and vice versa. Shared design from the same engraver but different dies? --- i don't know it.

This is something you can see in known original badges as well, made by the same maker. Some can be explained by production errors or a reworked dies etc etc... the answer can be of all different kinds.

If lets say a fake maker desides to copy a known design, then why not get a badge of the desired maker or design and make a mould from it or copy it in another way. We all know this is happening today, just look at the Staegemair production line and we all know that copying the obverse is the easiest part...

If "twist and turn" is another description of acedemic research work than i'm happy to twist and turn.

What ever makes you happy Andreas...
but i find it rather ridiculous when you in some cases want proof in terms of documents from others and sometimes you your self are in a wild goose chase and changes the approach so it will fit your way and to make you look good...

Why not live like your trying to teach?

[Andreas Klein]

If lets say a fake maker desides to copy a known design, then why not get a badge of the desired maker or design and make a mould from it or copy it in another way. We all know this is happening today, just look at the Staegemair production line and we all know that copying the obverse is the easiest part...

Would be a stupid faker if he is on own side able to copy perfect minor flaws and than adds on the other side a maker mark from a firm with it’s own design. And where are all those fakes?
You will earn money with your fakes and if you have a low prize badge than you have to produce a huge amount of it. But the L14 WB in Glaser design is quite rare and hard to find.

What ever makes you happy Andreas...
but i find it rather ridiculous when you in some cases want proof in terms of documents from others and sometimes you your self are in a wild goose chase and changes the approach so it will fit your way and to make you look good...
Why not live like your trying to teatch?

Your are always invited to trip to germany and i show you the Berlin document centre with rooms full of people on their wild goose chase because so many information’s are lost that we are in front of big puzzle.
Academic research is often 2 steps to the front and than 3 steps backwards if you find another document. I have no problem to say that I only know 10% from what really happened during that time but that’s 100% more than people sitting in their corner “believing” that they know it better and that everyone who asks question “why” they believe something are in a wild goose chase.

As long people start with personal comments instead of a factual statement the way of the goose is better. Discussing questionable badges is more than a scan and a “I don’t like it” – but that depends to everyone himself.

Take the L/15 discussion on the crosses for example. If it hadn’t be open no one had spent research time on the document Dietrich was able to find as paper based evidence that Schickle had L/15 in the first part of the war. For your point of view ridiculous – but for me and some other geese it was a great moment when Dietrich found the document and solved the first part of the mystery.

Since you tried now several times to put the WB book project into a bad light I can insure you that it isn’t “my book” and I decide what is good or bad. Beside me and the two other co authors we have some more collectors sharing opinions and knowledge on every part of the book.

When we will be at the Orth part the badge will be discussed again and decided how it will be fit to the book: good, bad or questionable …. Therefore Bastian, Dirk and me will still fly around in a wild goose chase and ask questions again and again …. like Bastian did on the ÜÜ problem, which was waterproof for many believers since years.

Btw there is no need for me to fit thinks in my way and make me looking good. Why? I have I satisfied live outside badge collection and I don’t need the status of an “expert” in the internet. I try to help with the things I know and if you know more than me …

[hojer13]

,in gold

[hojer13]

[Chrvip68]

This design Glaser-Souval exist in original Orth awards, but not this set up.

Looking to be replacement hardware...

Close up photos of the hinge and catch?