Dr Fritz Todt award - good or bad?

[Gary Symonds]

You know there is a very easy answer to that.....(but you refuse microscopic research to unmask all of your fakes).

Your answer Herr Jabnus, should be a factual refutation as to why I am incorrect, instead of your usual nonsensical conclusions of fact.

1. Do you even own a Todt Award Badge?

2. Have you even read or even own the reference books that I have cited?

Probably not.

[Tom Yanacek]

Hi guys,

This is the single Fritz Todt Prize that I own. It is certainly not the presentation type, but I think what is considered the "private purchase" type. These are typically found on display boards from the Wilhelm Deumer factory in Lüdenscheid. Although this one was not on a Deumer board when I bought it, it came with several other medals that were all made by Deumer and I believe they were all removed from one of these display boards.

Best regards,
Tom

[kenny andrew]

I think Gary has a point, this thread was started over three years ago and no other similar dated badges have been posted, I was also surprised these were considered fake. This one is numbered 87 and has a slightly different pin retainer being round rather than oval, it also has a paper label, not sure if the paper label helps, has this type of paper label been seen on original or fake badges before?

[kenny andrew]

The paper label

[Gary Symonds]

I think Gary has a point, this thread was started over three years ago and no other similar dated badges have been posted, I was also surprised these were considered fake. This one is numbered 87 and has a slightly different pin retainer being round rather than oval, it also has a paper label, not sure if the paper label helps, has this type of paper label been seen on original or fake badges before?

Thanks for the compliment Kenny.

What is interesting is that the minuture of the Todt badge uses the same design as our examples. See Niemann's catalog for the picture of the minuture.

I have a theory as to why many members believe this particular design is a fake. It appears that the Souval examples use this pattern for sale. Because of Souval's reputation, the thinking is that if Souval used this, it must be a fake.

However, it must be kept in mind that Souval did not create their badges from scratch, and just made something up and offered it for sale. Souval made copies of original badges, if in fact they were not an original maker, utilizing their own wartime die.

Now I know that our esteemed member Stan, believes that the badges with the date on the back of both of our examples, #87 and #108, plus #126 in post 2 three years ago, as well as the picture of the 8/2/44 date in Foreman's books are all "reproductions." Perhaps Stan can review his copy of Niemann's catalog, and explain why the minuture depicts this pattern, and not the "accepted" one as shown in post 17?

[Stan]

Hi Gary,

Well in my opinion the badge posted by Kenny is 100% fake and I say this for many reasons.

The only awarded versions of these badges were:

Type 1. Made of zinc and bearing a 3-part banner which reads Dr.-Ing. Fritz Todt- Preis.

Type 2. Made of Cupal and bearing a 3-part banner which reads Dr.- Ing. Fritz -Todt Preis.

The miniature for these award versions has a similar banner which is different to the one shown in Niemann's book which in my opinion is a fake. (Sorry about the size of the mini but you will see what I mean).


Stan

[Gary Symonds]

Hi Gary,

Well in my opinion the badge posted by Kenny is 100% fake and I say this for many reasons.

The only awarded versions of these badges were:

Type 1. Made of zinc and bearing a 3-part banner which reads Dr.-Ing. Fritz Todt- Preis.

Type 2. Made of Cupal and bearing a 3-part banner which reads Dr.- Ing. Fritz -Todt Preis.

The miniature for these award versions has a similar banner which is different to the one shown in Niemann's book which in my opinion is a fake. (Sorry about the size of the mini but you will see what I mean).


Stan

Stan, any reason that the mini's appear to be from two diffent dies?

The example on the right shows the beak of the eagle connected to the wing, and the other pin does not.

Am I wrong?

[Stan]

Gary,

The two miniatures that I have posted are certainly very different. The Silver one is one which I could believe in and the Steel version is one which has been denazified and is being sold by Weitze together with the large version.

I have to admit that I have a very limited interest in minis and only buy them when they come as part of a set.

Stan

[Military]

Just my neutral opinion, that the badge the OP started in post 01 in my opinion is a reproduction and the eagle in post 17 is genuine. I have handled these badges and genuine ones have a very different design. If you observe and compare both eagles (between post 01 and 17), there are differences. As for miniatures, I cannot comment as I have never handled any.

Mil

[Volksturmer]

My humble opinion here,
And I am an Old school collector....

But I have to come down on the side of Stan’s opinion.
Period. I think Stan is 100 % correct.

I’m not judging by old books like Angola, it’s just that if you’ve seen these badges for 50 years or more like Stan, like me, you get a feeling for what’s real. I’ve seen this happen again and again in our hobby. A new flavor of the month comes out, and everyone is supposed to bow down to it and say it’s real. This happens so often that it’s sickening. I’m not saying this is a case of it. But so many times, badges that were fake, become real, due to the pressure of opinion, and so much pressure is put out that everyone finally accepts it as real.

Sorry gents, but Stan is right this time, no matter what you wish was reality.
Stan is 100% correct.

Volksturmer

[Gary Symonds]

Hi Gary,

Well in my opinion the badge posted by Kenny is 100% fake and I say this for many reasons.

The only awarded versions of these badges were:

Type 1. Made of zinc and bearing a 3-part banner which reads Dr.-Ing. Fritz Todt- Preis.

Type 2. Made of Cupal and bearing a 3-part banner which reads Dr.- Ing. Fritz -Todt Preis.

The miniature for these award versions has a similar banner which is different to the one shown in Niemann's book which in my opinion is a fake. (Sorry about the size of the mini but you will see what I mean).


Stan

Stan, let's see. The miniature in Niemann's catalog is a fake, right?

Funny thing Weitze is selling one for 650 euros w/o a box, and 750 with a box.

Again, it mimicks the version that I posted, which in your opinion is also a fake.

Maybe you should contact Weitze and tell him he is selling fakes.

What is your evidence the stickpins in Niemann are fakes, and the ones you posted are naturally originals?

https://www.weitze.com/militaria/90/...s__252390.html

[kenny andrew]

Thanks Gary,

I'm now totally confused what to do, as the owner of the badge I posted wants to sell it.

So according to

Helmut Weitze

Detlev Niemann

Adrian Foreman

And the majority of the people who posted in this thread, including you and I think it's an original.

But only Stan thinks it's fake and can't give any cast iron reasons why.

I also just found another example being sold by André Hüsken for 2800 Euro

So how do we make a call on this badge, as all the evidence seems to point to it being original?

[Gary Symonds]

Thanks Gary,

I'm now totally confused what to do, as the owner of the badge I posted wants to sell it.

So according to

Helmut Weitze

Detlev Niemann

Adrian Foreman

And the majority of the people who posted in this thread, including you and I think it's an original.

But only Stan thinks it's fake and can't give any cast iron reasons why.

I also just found another example being sold by André Hüsken for 2800 Euro

So how do we make a call on this badge, as all the evidence seems to point to it being original?

Well, Kenny, though Stan is clearly a highly respected member of the WAF, he like so many members will provide their conclusionary opinion that such and such a badge is a fake.

However, when pressed for something we call "evidence" in support, the record is silent.

The WAF motto too often, is "I don't need no stinking evidence!"

I made my case in this thread as to the originality of this varient for the Todt badge, and I'm still waiting for some "evidence" i'm wrong. And I guess that will never happen!.

[kenny andrew]

I totally agree, I think you have made an excellent case. This badge was part of a large collection and all the other badges were textbook examples. I had never seen a Fritz Todt badge like this before and searched the WAF only because I thought it was scarce, the last thing I expected when I did find one, was for it to be called a fake. I have decided I will be putting this one out as an original until it can be proven otherwise. Thanks for all your help Gary

[Stan]

Gary,

I am not staying silent on this subject but the fact is that I gave you my opinion on what original awards should look like in post 21.

The examples with the curved beaks which both you and Kenny have posted are fake IMO.

There is an excellent thread on the Dr Ing. Fritz Todt Preis over on GCA in which Matthew and I discuss at length what is right and what is wrong and I can tell you that the badges with the curved beaks were never even mentioned!

Stan