Dr Fritz Todt award - good or bad?

[kenny andrew]

Hi Stan, yes I read that thread, but after reading it, I came to a totally different conclusion.

to quote Matthew

"As it stands, I have not seen anything to prove the Dr.Ing. badges even existed before the war's end. Regarding the zinc badges of Dr.Ing. type- either they are artificially aged (aged, not graded to look black, white/silver or gold), their finish oxidized from all of their surface (including their pins), or their pins were also made out of zinc."

The very first post by Matthew features a similar style badge in the the original press cutting, albeit more similar to the 'private purchase' type, it is certainly more similar to ours as it does not feature Dr.Ing on the scroll.

to quote Matthew again

"Another interesting fact is- the newspaper clipping was originally published in 'Litzmannstadter Zeitung' from August 5th, 1944, yet the badge shown (Dr. Fritz Todt inscription) is that which has been perceived as a 'private purchase' or otherwise non awarded piece by some collectors. "

I'm afraid this information only re-enforces my opinion, that Gary is correct and the badges we posted are the originals whilst sadly, it is actually your badge which could be fake or at best a variant. On top of this, our badges come in presentation cases, paper labels etc, very few are encountered, award numbers make sense, on the other hand there is no evidence to prove the Dr.Ing. badges even existed.

[Stan]

Kenny is being very economical with his quotes from the GCA thread - which is by far the best thread on any forum regarding the "Dr.Ing-. Fritz Todt Preis."

Fortunately collectors can read the thread in full and decide for themselves.

I have offered my honest opinion on the curved beak examples but at the end of the day this is a discussion forum Kenny and Gary are entitled to disagree.

Stan

[Gary Symonds]

Gary,

I am not staying silent on this subject but the fact is that I gave you my opinion on what original awards should look like in post 21.

The examples with the curved beaks which both you and Kenny have posted are fake IMO.

There is an excellent thread on the Dr Ing. Fritz Todt Preis over on GCA in which Matthew and I discuss at length what is right and what is wrong and I can tell you that the badges with the curved beaks were never even mentioned!

Stan

Stan, Weitze posted an example of the Fritz Todt Prize made by Zimmerman, and this is the pattern you claim as a "fake."

Your opinion please.

https://www.weitze.com/militaria/21/...r__360621.html

[Volksturmer]

As the Brits say, I may be a mixer here,

But I am posting photos for review, in the light of everything said in this thread!

And these posted items are the gold versions referenced earlier in the thread, and I hope the examples can shed light on the subject.

I am reserving my true judgment now- in other words, not coming to my already formed opinion on these.
I feel that getting these photos out there on the forum are more important than my jumping in first with my decisions.
Of Course, Share Your Thoughts!

[Gary Symonds]

As the Brits say, I may be a mixer here,

But I am posting photos for review, in the light of everything said in this thread!

And these posted items are the gold versions referenced earlier in the thread, and I hope the examples can shed light on the subject.

I am reserving my true judgment now- in other words, not coming to my already formed opinion on these.
I feel that getting these photos out there on the forum are more important than my jumping in first with my decisions.
Of Course, Share Your Thoughts!

Thanks, Volkstrumer, beautiful Todt Prize Badge, with the proper institution date.

Of course per Stan, a double fake.

Why are you pulling your punch, and not telling us what you, me and Weitze believe, that this pattern is merely a maker’s variation and not a fake?

[Stan]

Oh dear VS, that Gold one is pretty awful isn't it?!

As far as the one which HW has offered in his most recent update, I stand by my earlier comments.

Would someone mind posting pictures of it so that we can discuss it further?

Stan

[Volksturmer]

Has anyone seen/ Does anyone have, the 1945 version of Dr. Heinz Dohle’s Die Auszeichen des Grossdeutshen Reichs? It was supposed to have gone up in flames, but a reprint was made of the one surviving copy of it.

Apparently- this is shown in it.( I don’t have the book yet, but I found a copy on line for 32 Euros. )

I have always strongly doubted, and disliked, the type championed by Gary.

But if this IS in Doehle’s 1945 version.....? Hmmm.

[Stan]

Hi John,

Thanks very much for posting that picture of the Dr. Fritz Todt award shown in the 1945 version of Doehle's book. I have long known that he had shown an image of the award but up until today had never seen one.

However, this badge has no resemblance to the badge posted by Gary in posts #3 & 4 as it has a completely different shape of beak.


Stan

[Gary Symonds]

Hi John,

Thanks very much for posting that picture of the Dr. Fritz Todt award shown in the 1945 version of Doehle's book. I have long known that he had shown an image of the award but up until today had never seen one.

However, this badge has no resemblance to the badge posted by Gary in posts #3 & 4 as it has a completely different shape of beak.


Stan

I have a copy of the 1945 Doehle reprint. At page 91, there is a description of the Todt Preises, but no picture.

In fact nowhere in my copy is the word "Seite" with a number used, let alone #92, or any other "Seite" number for other medals described in my reprint.

In any case, what Stan cannot give any weight too, is the fact that maybe, just maybe the differences between the medal that Weitze is selling and my example, and others posted by members in this thread is merely a maker's variation.

I have said over and over again, the Party tried to spread the work around as much as possible. This was the "Socialist" aspect of the Party. Therefore, why Stan is it out of the question that two makers could not have been used for the Todt Preis? Niemann in his catalog, shows the minuature I have with the same attributes as the badge in dispute.

I also own an original copy of the 1943 edition. This has also been reprinted. It is obvious to me that an example of a medal was provided to the artist with whatever example was at hand. If you go to the 1943 edition, and the 1945 edition at page 85, and look up the Berlin Gau Honor badge, you will observe that the medal as drawn has a round headed eagle, and not the flat headed eagle SA eagle that is in the reference books. I own an example of the round headed eagle, which does not have rivets, and in my opinion, and I have asserted this in earlier thread on the Berlin Gau Badge, that it was modified and cheapened later in the war, to be provided to deserving Berliners for war contribution. The Gau Berlin Badge was issued in 1936, and by 1943, there may not even been an example to provide to the artist. Clearly, they were not pondering about what 21st century collectors would be thinking about in 1943/1945. Instead, the artist was provided with the later modified example in 1943/1945, when these were published! Why am I bringing this up? Because in my opinion Doehle would provide the artist with whatever example was at hand, and it could very well be that if the example is actually depicted in the 1945 edition, and somehow my copy lacks the picture, all it proved was that this version was the example available at hand and the variation example was not.

This difference in maker variation does not make this example a fake.

Stan, your cogent response is respectfully requested.

[Stan]

Well Gary what is for certain is that we don’t yet know all there is to know about these awards.

What IMO is so far known is that the first awards had the inscription “Dr.Ing-. Fritz Todt Preis” and they were first made of zinc and later made of Cupal. We also know that they were made by Godet.

We also know that Deumer produced many examples with the inscription “Dr Fritz Todt” although we don’t know whether or not they were produced before the end of the war or immediately afterwards for placing on barter boards.

Whether another example with the round beak was produced by Zimmerman (and others) before May 1945 I do not know, but I do know that there are lots of fakes of this style in circulation.



Stan

[Gary Symonds]

Well Gary what is for certain is that we don’t yet know all there is to know about these awards.

What IMO is so far known is that the first awards had the inscription “Dr.Ing-. Fritz Todt Preis” and they were first made of zinc and later made of Cupal. We also know that they were made by Godet.

We also know that Deumer produced many examples with the inscription “Dr Fritz Todt” although we don’t know whether or not they were produced before the end of the war or immediately afterwards for placing on barter boards.

Whether another example with the round beak was produced by Zimmerman (and others) before May 1945 I do not know, but I do know that there are lots of fakes of this style in circulation.



Stan

Stan, the main reason this pattern has a bad reputation, is the unfortunate fact that Souval choose this pattern to make their post war reproduction.

After that, all examples of this pattern were damned by many in the collecting community, contrary to all the supporting evidence that this maker variation was period original.

[Volksturmer]

I have a copy of the 1945 Doehle reprint. At page 91, there is a description of the Todt Preises, but no picture.

In fact nowhere in my copy is the word "Seite" with a number used, let alone #92, or any other "Seite" number for other medals described in my reprint

Gary,
I was told the picture was in the back -
You saved me 32 Euros if that picture isn’t in the 1945 Doehle reprint. I haven’t had a chance to order it yet. If Seite 92 isn’t in the back, that makes me want to skip buying it.

By the way, not only did I Not notice that the eagle in the ‘Seite 92’ Doehle picture was the kind I don’t like: the ‘chin-up’ or ‘proud’ type eagle, as I call them, because of the tilt of the beak upwards- I also failed to notice that the Seite 92 picture does not have the banner across saying Dr Ing -Fritz Todt- Preis.

I found this information interesting: originally in Italian. I’m not vouching for 100% accuracy- it’s from Italian Wikipedia (!) but with the many questions around this award, I think it’s worth reading. (My English and Spanish, and it’s cousin Italian, is better than my German).

“Hitler on 11 February established the German Order as the main personal, party and state decoration, and granted it to Todt post mortem. The following year - and precisely on “November 12, 1943 - Hitler created a special prize named after Fritz Todt (Dr.-Fritz-Todt-Preis), to honor people in the industrial field who had contributed significantly to the war effort.”

The decoration was conceived in three degrees, each accompanied by a cash prize:

Gold - 50000 Reichsmark
Silver - 30000 Reichsmark
Steel - 10000 Reichsmark


The degree depended on the significance of the inventions or developments or more generally of the contribution to the war effort put in place by the award-winning. Given the sums - which made it the second German civil prize with the award of money together with the decoration, after the German National Prize for Art and Science - it is to be believed that the "Dr. Fritz Todt" Award was considered the highest honor dedicated specifically to the work, higher than the Pioneer of Labour award.(Angolia)

The degree in gold was granted directly by Hitler, following simultaneous indication and approval of the technology department of the National Socialist Party and the commander of the German Labour Front (Deutsche Arbeitsfront, DAF), Robert Ley. The silver and steel grades were instead conferred by the Gauleiter of the Gau belonging of the decorated, following the simultaneous indication and approval of the Gauobmann (Chief of the Gau) of the DAF and the Gauamtsleiter (Commander of the Gau) of the Department National Socialist Party.

It was decided that the award should be awarded twice a year: September 4 - Todt's date of birth - and February 8 - the date of his death. The first gold class awards were presented directly by Ley on February 8, 1944.

The exact number of the decorated is unknown, but the gold class was certainly the preserve of a small number of people. The names known for the highest grade of the "Dr. Fritz Todt" Award are as follows.

Dipl.-Ing. August Coenders (inventor or developer of some new German weapons, such as the V3 supergun)
Dr. Karl Daeves (author of a series of studies on steel and chromium for war applications)
Dr. Walter Eichholz (inventor of a series of special ceramic applications)
Generalmajor Dr.-Ing. Uto Gallwitz (commander of the ballistics department of the Army's munitions office. Killed in battle on 31 March 1943, he was awarded postmortem on 8 February 1944)
Dr. -Ing. Georg G'llner (he worked in the field of telecommunications, developing new techniques)
Prof. Dr. Karl Kopfm's (electronic engineer, he developed the field of telecommunications, acoustics and electrotechnology)
Dr.-Ing. Franz Plzguter (metal scholar)
Dr. Ernst Ruska (physicist, 1986 won the Nobel Prize)”


On the occasion of the first award of the "Dr. Fritz Todt" Award (February 8, 1944), the Preußische Zeitung officially presented the decoration on the front page.

[Volksturmer]

Some thoughts -
given the amount of these awards out there for sale and in collections, and it being seemingly a more rare award than the existing supply, are we dealing with, not only the fakes, but a bunch of original overruns?
Stan’s opinion that these are in zinc seems highly possible at this stage of the war (44). Also - could the high number of ‘private’ versions be due to the wish and influence of the recipient to have something better than zinc? Remember the lowest award had a cash bonus of 10,000 Reichmarks - second - 30,000!

Is Gary’s example, and the gold example in #44, a design variant, being rarer than others? Or Are the rarest and real the ones like Stan’s? Are the badges that Read Dr Ing Fritz Todt Preis a variant?

Or are the real, the most common type encountered, with simplified banner and horizontal beak, as indicated in the Prussian Newspaper?

Also - if this was awarded twice a year on Todt’s birthday and the anniversary of his death - and the first awarding was in February 1944 - that leaves 3 award ceremonies.
Thus - there may indeed have been confusion around this award, as the entire TR was in confusion at this time.
I think it may be possible that there were at least 3 variations of originals.

The Gold “proud eagle” (chin arrogantly up to the sky) version I posted has only turned up once, that I personally have heard. I still am very suspicious of it- a gut feeling, I admit. However, if fake, why is it so rare? And if the version with the banner that reads- Dr Ing Fritz Todt Preis is not in the Prussian Newspaper when the award was announced, is it a variant?

This seems like an award that would have fewer real awards, and lots of later copies. 3 award ceremonies maximum- according to this information.
But has anyone seen Both award dates on the awards?
If not, that lowers the number of originals.

Just throwing ideas out there, food for thought, to show points of confusion and uncertainty. Like Br James, I too am wary of this award.

Because if has many unknowns, this is admittedly a bewitching and puzzling award.
One of the more confusing in the TR, IMO.
However, because of that fact, one of the most interesting!!
John

[Volksturmer]

More thoughts:
If indeed “ The first gold class awards were presented directly by Ley on February 8, 1944,” and the award was pictured in the Prussian Newspaper, one would think that the award would be the standard horizontal beak, plain banner prize, as depicted in the newspaper.
So where does that leave the gold version from #44, the ‘proud eagle’ type?
It seems wrong.

However,
To confuse the issue,
Check out this zinc ‘proud eagle’ version, without date, and different hardware.
It was extremely well-struck, serrated edges, and hand finishing.
So, you see how confusing this award can be. When I see someone work so hard on a zinc medal, I think possibly ‘Original.’

[Stan]

John,

The newspaper article doesn't show an original award, its shows a planchet or something similar, hence the four holes in the corners.

This is the design which is commonly found on Deumer barter boards.

The round beak version you just posted is from the same maker as the badge which Weitze has for sale, although on his piece the hardware appears to have been replaced with German Cross hardware marked "20".

Note also the poor symmetry on the reverse.

Stan