Jungsturm Hitler 1921-1923 Badge

[Military]

Interesting....

Mil

[Jo Rivett]

I would so love to see a micro report on a few of these awards!

What needs to be dealt with first, are these "salop" postings, where anything and everything just gets tagged as "100% original"... and claimed to be "manufactured correctly" with nothing more than the word vet.
I have a strong suspision, that the people who are guilty of this salop-ness are the ones who own the items they are hyping and and tagging as genuine, and in fact know absolutely zero about period manufacturing, zero about what is "correct" or not, and have no intentions of ever wanting to know either.

There is no other way to interpret the many posts by the same few people of late - these past few years - A few words about how the item was vet aquired, how it has been inspectd, and how it is unquestionably authentic! Then, the original poster runs off into the night, never to be heard from again.

Never to debate.
Never to present any research.
Never to present any decent images.
Never to stand their corner and respond to questions.

It is a real shame, because it does not stop here. Many times, inside the community section forum, you will find these same individuals whining and moaning amongst themselves at just how unjust many have been with their rare and valuable treasures, how they refuse to upload anything of interest because it just gets slammed with a one-liner "Fake" with no explanation.

Nothing could be further from the truth, as on many threads over the years, it has been shown and proven that certain items were fake, by many collectors, with much more than just a spiteful "Fake in my opinion."

That is, though, the result of posting a few lines, declaring the item genuine by way of the word vet, and not debating after negative comments start filtering in. Because it is always the negative comments that get them, when the feedback is all dandy and praising, of course the O.P will return, to say thanks, to boast a bit, to drop the word vet again and again, but as soon as questions get asked...as soon as things turn sour, it`s Adios.

[Bob Hritz]

Jo,

Trying to bait me will not work. I have dealt with thousands of veterans over the years and think I may have learned something. You cannot imagine the items I have seen and handled directly from the men who captured them. This is not your faukt; it is an issue of timing and location.

I do not judge a badge that I have never seen or held from a photograph. You have your opinion, I have mine. Neither of us will change the other's mind, so why bother picking at each other.

You have the ability to insult and attack anyone you wish and are immune from any action. Being expelled used to be permanent, by definition, but you were reinstated. Now, THAT is power.

So, Jo, you won't find me pouting as I am a very successful collector who is happy with what I have. And there .are plenty of collectors waiting for the sale of my vast collection.

Bob Hritz

[Jo Rivett]

Bob, you replied to a post calling people out who never have anything else to support their assertions with except the word vet...with a post using the word vet, and nothing else?

[Jo Rivett]

...the precious

One ending soon at Militaria321. Link

[GiuseppeC]

I do not judge a badge that I have never seen or held from a photograph.

Bob Hritz

Bob:

In the case of those fictitious "pattern" Blood Orders, the body of physical evidence suggests they are fake:

1. Manufacturing is not consistent with manufacturing techniques in-use WORLDWIDE, before, during, and after these were supposedly made.

2. Engraving between examples is obviously done by different people, in some cases using modern equipment. (Gahr managed to produce consistent script-engraving on thousands of SS honor rings...but Fuess can't do consistent block-lettering across 7 known badges?)

3. Manufacturer's stampings are different in some of the 7 known examples, which is significant, because it shows a different technique in use.

4. Finishing work on some examples show a lack of quality, inconsistent to other, higher-production pieces from this maker. (Maybe a guy working the late shift made that one.)

Circumstantial evidence also suggests they are fake:

1. No period photo of ANYBODY showing this badge in wear.

2. No documentation stating their creation, distribution, or purpose, other than a few postwar letters from impoverished former Nazis (which could easily be forgeries).

3. No records of this badge prior to the late 90's...so in 50 years, nobody from OMSA, BDOS, or any of the other awards collecting organizations have seen/handled/photographed one of these.

Believing they are real, won't change the fact that they won't stand up to examination under a microscope.

The science of microscopy is ironclad, and doesn't need to rely on stories of how "vets 'liberated' it from Hitler's sock drawer". The evidence Suggests fake...the microscope can easily Prove it.

Lastly, the suggestion that these were "cast 'BECAUSE' they're a prototype" is absolutely laughable, and shows either wholesale ignorance, or an attempt to spread disinformation.

1. If that were the case, we'd have seen documented & verifiable "cast prototypes" of several other awards by now...we haven't.

2. We have seen original dies, and original engraved pre-reduction plates from period pieces.

3. When a customer approaches a manufacturer with a build-order, pre-manufacturing takes place EXACTLY the same way it would if the customer pre-approved the design. This is done to avoid unnecessary production delays (e.g. waiting on the reduction lathe to do its thing, damaged dies, etc.).

Kind Regards,

Andre

[Gaspare]

A real mess...
- it has happened to every one of us. We've bought a piece from a vet that turned out not to be good.! In the mid 70s my great uncle [a WW2 vet] gave me a Panzer lanyard. Nice thing,,had 2 shells dangling from it. I had it in a display with a couple PABs and Pz collar tabs,,,well guess what? - I just recently found out it was a reproduction!

Really, unless we were there when the thing was made,,OR there is some type of irrefutable provenance there is always the chance the thing is a copy/fantasy.

Not knowing enough about this piece my question:
Is this a copy of the piece,,or is it a complete fantasy piece?

[jimmy72]

How far are we going to go for the " vet story " ? You have grandkids jotting down provenance on a piece of foolscap paper as cash is slid across a table. Are we cutting it off at great grandkids or great great grandkids ? That old proof is going the way of the dodo with the informed newer collectors , and that's no slight to the vets who brought this stuff back , but the reality is they are gone and the details went with them. Some more seasoned collectors will embrace it and the majority won't but irregardless the item will tell the truth .

[Jo Rivett]

How far are we going to go for the " vet story " ? You have grandkids jotting down provenance on a piece of foolscap paper as cash is slid across a table. Are we cutting it off at great grandkids or great great grandkids ? .

From a recent thread about Heinrich Himmler forks and spoons.
"Dated 2014. I was told at a very young age..."

user: Safespacedweller

"Jo, can you please show me why my award is fake - or genuine? Could you please elaborate on your innitial post, for the benifit of other WAF users."

Jo:

Sure, i was told at a very young age..."

[jimmy72]

Heh heh ! Yes , the Himmler silverware thread is what I was referencing . Quite the read .

[jimmy72]

What needs to be dealt with first, are these "salop" postings, where anything and everything just gets tagged as "100% original"... and claimed to be "manufactured correctly" with nothing more than the word vet.
I have a strong suspision, that the people who are guilty of this salop-ness are the ones who own the items they are hyping and and tagging as genuine, and in fact know absolutely zero about period manufacturing, zero about what is "correct" or not, and have no intentions of ever wanting to know either.

There is no other way to interpret the many posts by the same few people of late - these past few years - A few words about how the item was vet aquired, how it has been inspectd, and how it is unquestionably authentic! Then, the original poster runs off into the night, never to be heard from again.

Never to debate.
Never to present any research.
Never to present any decent images.
Never to stand their corner and respond to questions.

It is a real shame, because it does not stop here. Many times, inside the community section forum, you will find these same individuals whining and moaning amongst themselves at just how unjust many have been with their rare and valuable treasures, how they refuse to upload anything of interest because it just gets slammed with a one-liner "Fake" with no explanation.

Nothing could be further from the truth, as on many threads over the years, it has been shown and proven that certain items were fake, by many collectors, with much more than just a spiteful "Fake in my opinion."

That is, though, the result of posting a few lines, declaring the item genuine by way of the word vet, and not debating after negative comments start filtering in. Because it is always the negative comments that get them, when the feedback is all dandy and praising, of course the O.P will return, to say thanks, to boast a bit, to drop the word vet again and again, but as soon as questions get asked...as soon as things turn sour, it`s Adios.

Well said !

[Gaspare]

trying to get my question answered I did a little research and came up with this:

"While these badges (there are two different designs) have been lumped into a couple of postwar awards books and the design makes it a natural "award for the early HJ", there's very good reason to believe that it was neither created nor sanctioned by the NSDAP or Hitler Youth. It's a very, very long story of failed ambitions, purloined postage stamps, the illegal wearing of the Blood Order, and politically correct Nazi history versus actual Nazi history. Suffice it to say that these pins were almost certainly no more than sexy tinnies created for Jugendbund veteran's reunions."

So let me try again,,if anyone really knows,,

Is this a known piece? or is it in the fantasy category?

[Jo Rivett]

Is this a known piece? or is it in the fantasy category?

A few weeks ago, the original poster of this thread, also claimed to have a HJ grouping, containing not one, but TWO of the Urkunde

Thread link, images below. I have no idea about these badges, and to me both Urkunde look photocopied and purposely placed in that particular grouping, but there you go, that`s just me. I have never tried to research these, but have always been under the impression that they were complete fantasy creations. Would be great to be shown otherwise.

[Jo Rivett]

From what I have seen, I believe the originals are bronze/copper color and have a completely different pin and hook setup on the reverse.
Bob Hritz

A friend obtained an origjnal that was a US vet brought back piece. I have it in my possession and have been able to examine it. It matches what originals should be.
Bob Hritz

Bob, what does the pin set up - attachment - have to do with authenticity?

This supposed original that you own (or at least have), that "matches known originals " with it"s "different pin and hook setup", well it is identical to the one that Ailsby shows, yet his has a very different pin setup.

Here is the badge from the Russian forum that you are claiming is original (because it matches yours ) LINK - asking price $3850.-

And here is Ailsby`s, which is of course, absolutely identical in every respect except that the attachment is different. LINK obverse image LINK reverse image.

More found:

Weitze - Asking €3500.-
Weitze - asking €3200.-

btw, the sale i linked to at Mili321 auction (screen shot), just sold for €200.- (Two hundred euros)

[Jo Rivett]

There is only one original posted on the Russian forum.

Be patient, Bob will be back to explain exactly why "only one" is original. Below are TEN of them, and with the exception of the badge that started this thread off - that Ratisbons withdrew from auction) they were all sold as original
And as we know, the sales prices vary between €200 - €4000.-!!!
(Mostly though, they are offered for north of €3000.-!!!)

Assertion without explanation = FAKE NEWS!

I have a bad feeling that Bob will not be back to explain. I might be wrong, but i have never seen him clafiry anything, ever, only simply assert and run.