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**Mike Tucker** · 06-27-2015, 11:42 PM

Jo, a beautifully laid out case!

**Jo Rivett** · 06-28-2015, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by Mike Tucker View Post

Jo, a beautifully laid out case!

HI Mike
Cheers

Yes the cast fakes are the easiest to expose under the microscope. There are, of course, also cast "raised" markings on some small badges. So whether the makers name or abbreviation GES.GESCH. is raised of sunken, really is of no importance, as both were used during the Third Reich period by many (if not all) makers and sub-contractors, and both are used by fakers as well post-war. Die stamped by badge makers on semi-correctly produced badges, or as is the case here, die cast by forgers.

Here are two magnified letters from a fake Essen Gautagabzeichen, the name Hoffstätter-Bonn is raised on these, but also, under high magnification, instantly exposed as cast.

The very small, micro-cast badges, like the SS badge in this thread, can really only be seen - and correctly/conclusively exposed - under high magnification.

**Wim Vangossum** · 06-28-2015, 04:20 AM

Keep up the good work Jo. But stop scare me like hell; I got al lot of that black enamel

Regards, Wim

**Jo Rivett** · 06-28-2015, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by Wim Vangossum View Post

...... stop scare me like hell; I got al lot of that black enamel

Regards, Wim

Wim, no need to worry, this thread will drop to the bottom of page 1 within a week, and then it will be lost. So not many will read it, not many will want to either, and the cast rubbish will still be sold, day-in, day-out, as genuine

The hobby does not want it any other way.

**Dietrich Maerz** · 06-28-2015, 11:23 AM

I pinned the thread and hope it will continue to grow.

**Jo Rivett** · 06-28-2015, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

I pinned the thread and hope it will continue to grow.

Yes let`s hope it will.
__________________________________________________ _________
To be clear about one thing. Neither of the two micro-cast fakes shown so far, (post 1 & this post) are recognizable as "cast" in-hand. I had a few SS-collectors inspect this one shown below, and not a single one of them could see any problem. (neither could i, in-hand) I acquired it from a dealer in Germany, and showed it to 3 other, European dealers. (in the flesh, not just an image) None of them saw any problems either.
__________________________________________________ _________
The next Civil-SS stickpin that turns out to a cast fake, is the following. (The SS runes slightly fatter this time, more like the runes on a Gahr stickpin.)
__________________________________________________ _______

↓ The side/edges viewed at great magnification, revealing instantly that it was cast and not struck & sheared/trimmed.

↓ The makers name [Hoffstätter] is also clearly cast here. Not as bad as the previous, micro-cast fake, but bad enough to expose it instantly under the microscope. (Especially once you compare it with similar images taken from genuine, struck/stamped & sheared/trimmed badges)

↓ The surface as well showing clearly that it was cast and not struck/stamped.

**Mike Tucker** · 06-28-2015, 08:33 PM

Jo, from your use of MSC, it is obvious that these insignia were cast and not struck. The images look more like an aerial view of a lava flow than a die struck piece of metal. Unfortunately, I'm afraid someone soon will advance the theory that these pins were indeed period cast and were not die struck!

**Jo Rivett** · 06-29-2015, 04:29 AM

Mike, the major headache is that there is not just one casting method.
As with normal German badges, a die is created, a Grundrohling is struck, that is trimmed/sheared and becomes a Rohling which then goes through the production stages of chemical cleaning, enameling, coating and so on.
There is also no book to consult, or factory to go to to have someone explain all the different casting methods.
Depending on who faked the item, what casting method they used, what casting medium they used (clay, wood, rubber, wax, silicon, sand, sand with oil, fine sand, foam, injection, spun... as well as what metal(s) was/were used.....the list goes on and on........ and naturally depending on their skills and the time they took to fake an item - there is not just one set image to look at and be 100% sure that it is cast.
The more you examine the fakes, the more "methods" of casting will be seen.
Three examples below of very small-to-medium badges that were cast.
↓ Fake Gautagabzeichen Essen 1935 - Spun cast, or injection cast, with the molten metal oozing/bubbling (being forced outwards) into parts of the porous mold as it was setting - (rubber/foam/silicon mold maybe)

↓ Fake cast Hoheitsabzeichen, similar to above, with only very tiny "outbreaks" of the liquid metal "popping" through into the mold.

↓ The makers RZM number as well as RZM code are also cast on this tiny Hoheitsabzeichen.

No forger is going to tell you their secrets, and unless you are a faker, there is no way you can learn about the different methods. Working in a badge factory that produces badges the same as they did 100 years ago is helpful when you want to learn about how this stuff was really made back in the Third Reich, but as far as "learning" about the cast fakes, and the casting procedures, there is no help. It all boils down to a detailed examination of the item .
If the item was not made the way badges were made, then you will see this under the microscope. You may have to take many images, and have to look for a long time, but it will be seen.

Before i would even consider looking at anything "patina" related, i would first want to know how the item was made, as in many cases, the fakes are cast.

**andrewb** · 06-29-2015, 05:26 AM

Great work Jo but can we see an original to compare please.

Regards,
AB.

**Wim Vangossum** · 06-29-2015, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by andrewb View Post

Great work Jo but can we see an original to compare please.

Regards,
AB.

Also my thoughts. Diden't sleep a wink last night. A side bij side comparison would be welcome.

Jo, what mold would they have used to make these fakes? I mean you need a genuine piece without the enamel to make a mold for this, right? Would the mold be made of silicone? Is that material precise enough to capture such tiny details like the lettering? I know it is called micro-casting but I have no idea to what level this go.
And if they cast the serial number with it then there most be a lott of SS-zivilabzeichens with the same number?

Regards, Wim

**Jo Rivett** · 06-29-2015, 06:37 AM

Originally posted by andrewb View Post

Great work Jo but can we see an original to compare please.

I am sure that someone who owns an original will take similar images under magnification and present them here. I dont see it as my job to do this. I see it as the job(s) of those who actually own these items, to do their own investigating. (Not to say i have not already done this of course, i have)

They could even inspect the same items as are shown here, if they did not agree that they were cast, that is their good right, and that is what is needed if someone does not agree.

If i was doing an article on them, then surely the images would be as the other "exposed" article images are, a side-by-side comparison, good vs. bad of the same image - for "easy viewing"

This "problem" with the Civil SS stickpins, goes much deeper than just a "slide show comparison" though. There are too many versions of these around, with slightly different makers details, different makers altogether, RZM numbers, silver stamps, raised markings, sunken markings..... no markings! Stickpins made in a similar fashion to originals, cast pins, well made, poorly made........
A side-by-side comparison is not the way to go with these, but rather individual inspection of the many variants.

After thats done, at least we could then start to group them together.
Some fakes, as was shown on another thread, (JFS fake and bubble-bubble Hoffsätter raised fake) make use of the same obverse die, yet totally different makers details/names. Or, make use of the same reverse die and a totally different obverse die/design.

There unfortunately cannot be, a simple "the good is on the left, and the cast is on the right" image presentation - until we have a much better idea of whats going on. Not forgetting to research the actual history of these, to the fullest, as that has not yet been done, and will relate directly to the numbers found on them - possible/likely production period etc..
There are plenty of hear-say stories about what to look for, but not a single one is based on anything except an opinion.

The next very real problem, which i am contemplating on whether or not to show an example of on this forum yet, is the fact that collectors have been lied to, from day one, from certain authors. Not just a case of someone wrongly quoting, or a translation error, but outright fraud.

Remember as well that these are only 13mm, the obverse doesn't have "many different details" like other badges have to expose them by, only black enamel, two runes and then the reverse. So there are only a few sections we have to inspect under the microscope. Makers details, die construction, tooling used, finish, the actual numbers seen in relationship to the maker/date, and then with those that were made correctly (die struck/silver washed) this is limited even more. (but still possible)

**Jo Rivett** · 06-29-2015, 07:06 AM

Originally posted by Wim Vangossum View Post

I know it is called micro-casting but I have no idea to what level this go.
And if they cast the serial number with it then there most be a lott of SS-zivilabzeichens with the same number?

Wim, why would there be a lot with the same number?

The micro-casting.. well the Treuewerkabz. as well as the NSPDÖ abz. are not that much bigger than these, and their obverses are chock-a-block full of details. (And both are cast.) The SS pin, has two runes only and black enamel.
I cant answer your question Wim. If you read my post here, it should be clear why i cant. The only person(s) who could, would be fakers themselves, and even they, surely have no idea what their items look like under magnification.
Only time, as well as many more detailed inspections will (maybe) be able to give us some answers.
Images below are the comparisons of the TW and NSPDÖ badges - (original left, cast fake right) micro-cast, and as you know, fool people even to this day. So imagine how easy it is to fool with a cast fake that has virtually no details like these to "check/compare".
I also dont have the feeling that it is my job to "show" anything, and certainly not take flak for not showing what people want.
I had no intentions at all of starting any thread here about the SS pins, as i know full well where it will end. But, i recently noted that a few conversations were started and "variations" being attributed to this and that, when in fact the badge(s) in question were fake. So i thought i would do a good deed, and at least bring those who wish to discuss these, onto a semi-correct path. And of course encourage independent research.

Lets not forget, this is surely the first time on any forum that a SS pin thread went above a "thumbs up" or an "opinion", and went into actual detail of the item. So it is new ground for sure. And seeing as none of us here are forgers , and 99.9% of us have no experience with micro-casting or even magnified images, i simply cant see what a quick side-by-side "clarification" would bring. Certainly not clarification, in fact the opposite.
Independent research is the only way forward. I would help of course, but not in a million years will i take this burden on my shoulders alone. Or be held accountable as the "go-to man" for SS-civil information. Thats is not what this is about. I am simply opening peoples eyes with these "cast articles" If they want to stay shut, fine, if they dont want to believe me, fine as well. I have no worries with either.
For the price of less than half a Civil-SS stickpin, a decent microscope can be purchased.

**Jo Rivett** · 06-29-2015, 08:25 AM

Yet another Hoffstätter version, recently sold together with a group of items for €4000.- It is clear why individual research needs to take place here, and why we cant just brand "all kinds of badge that look like this" - "or "that show these kinds of runes.." as fake/good.

**Stan** · 08-01-2015, 03:53 AM

Here's one I bought off Estand a couple of years ago.

Can you tell from these shots if its a good one or not?

Stan

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