Adler Orden

[cej]

Weitze --WRONG SHASH !!!!

Weitze has a 1943 1st class Order of the German Eagle for sale but the sash ribbon is not a 1943 1st class sash ribbon !!!! The sash should have a white line in the middle !!! The sash ribbon he is showing is for a Grand Cross !!!
Go to Emedals web site and he has a photo of the { correct sash } of a 1943 1st class he sold.

Could it be possible that when the 1943 1st Class Order of the German Eagle is awarded with swords it was to be awarded without the white stripe down the middle of the sash ???

[Peter J.]

"Could it be possible that when the 1943 1st Class Order of the German Eagle is awarded with swords it was to be awarded without the white stripe down the middle of the sash ???"

I see no reason for that assumption. The center stripe was most likely added in order to distinguish a 1.Klasse from a Grand Cross when viewed from a distance.
The 10mm smaller 1.Klasse cross with silver eagles was fairly similar to a Grand Cross from a distance.

cheers
Peter

[cej]

All I know is what I see at these web sites

I have looked at books and haven't seen any that show the 1943 1st class Eagle Order with swords with the stripe on the sash ! What book does ?

[cej]

Weitze-Correct Sash ?

Weitze has the correct sash Cross and 8 pointed star but not the correct sash for sale for his 1943 1st class Eagle Order with swords.

[cej]

One last Question to Marisca, and Peter J

Have either one of you photos or have seen a 1943 1st Class Eagle Order with sash being worn ? They exist but were they awarded ? The Merit medal with the stripe is seen often so it was awarded a lot so there is no problem with that.

[marisca lrommel]

A photo proof which was awarded the Grand Cross of the order of the Eagle German from 1943-1945

[Peter J.]

In what way is this proof of anything? A Swedish Lieutenant Colonel has been awarded an 1.Stufe 1942 (neckcross), the attached piece of paper reads "Kommendoer". Why would the 1.Klasse had been awarded more than a year prior to its institution?

cheers
Peter

[marisca lrommel]

For me it is a evidence the fact that is a batch that belongs to the same award-winning. Both the Grand Cross as the Charter certificate belong to the same person. As for the date of the grant not try the winner received the distinction in 1942.

1942 is the date which was awarded the Grand Cross and was certainly notified such prize on that date but there is evidence (at least so took place with the award-winning Spanish) of the prizes awarded in the last years of the conflict, took to reach its award-winning, before receiving the certificates of award and subsequently the award received, by what is likely the date of the certificate to be 1942 but when the award will be sentthe new model responding to send to the new regulation of the order of the German Eagle.

It is true that they do not exist or we haven't seen images that clearly show the recipients of the Grand Cross with a model 1943-1945, but I am inclined to think that if they were distributed and early sooner or later we will see evidence of this... While this is happening, I think that images like that they've published, show that the distinction was distributedonly it arrived so late at the hands of their recipients that there was no real time to look the same at some point that so require.

[Peter J.]

M, I find it very difficult to follow your argumentation. I´ve also asked you on several occasions to use the correct concept for each decoration we discuss, but you insist on mixing Stufe and Klasse.

The 1942 document says nothing about a Grand Cross, it´s an Erste Stufe, which also is correct for a Lieutenant Colonel. If he indeed received the 1.Klasse at a later stage, he would have been Commanding General. Further more, I don't think a 1.Klasse should be viewed as a Grand Cross. If that was the case it would most probably be officially named that way (i.g. Grand Cross 2.class).

cheers
Peter

[marisca lrommel]

According to his reasoning, maybe you are right and that the set is not correct. Not had noticed that detail.

The award certificate should have been like that show in the image and not as you see. A certificate with the name "ERSTER STUFE" does not correspond with the Grand Cross of the order of the Eagle German, although the Ordinances of 1943 place it in first class.

To my knowledge, the designations of the Grand Cross, both certificates and boxes remained "GROSSKREUZ DES ORDENS VOM DEUTSCHEN ADLER", so it can be deduced that the lot is not correct.

You are right Peter, this it is not correct for this detail that I had not seen

A correct award certificate to a spanish

[marisca lrommel]

A image of the legend inside to the Grand Cross case

[cej]

The 8 pointed Grand Cross of the Eagle Order

The 1943 Grand Cross 8 pointed star will be harder to tell the difference over time with the 1943 1st class breast star. Frosting fades easy in a short time like the frosting on Luftwaffe badges and plated eagles thin out in time !! The construction of these breast stars are the same its only a matter of time the price will be the same in value!!

[Peter J.]

M, finally we have come to some agreement The following is still open for discussons IMO:

"The award certificate should have been like that show in the image and not as you see. A certificate with the name "ERSTER STUFE" does not correspond with the Grand Cross of the order of the Eagle German, although the Ordinances of 1943 place it in first class."

According to both Klietmann and Angolia, the 1937 Grosskreuz and 1943 Grosskreuz were identical in appearance (60mm sash cross and an 80mm 8-pointed silver star). Alleged markings are: 1937 sash cross "900" and 1943 sash cross "900" and "21". Same thing with the breast stars.

The 1.Stufe of 1937 was the 50mm neck cross and if awarded also the 75mm 6-pointed silver star is was named Verdienstkreuz vom Deutschen Adler mit stern. We can leave the markings for later, apparently you have a different view of the interpretation of the "1" allegally found on the neck crosses. I have no problem with the possibility of Deschler perhaps were the earliest producers, but time will probably tell. The silver cross was marked "900". In 1943 the titles changed to DAO III.Klasse and was marked "900" and "21". As I´ve already poved with my illustration, the "3" on the fan was also a reality. The silver cross (or neck crock cross + silver cross) was renamed DAO II.Klasse, the neck cross was marked "900", "21" and "2" on the fan. Silver star "900" and "21". All this leaves a fashinating scenario, the 50mm neck cross can be found with the markings "1" on the ring of the 1939 issue, "1" on the fan of the 1939 issue and finally "2" or "3" on the fan of the 1943 issues (neck cross only "3" and neck cross + silver star/ additional silver star "2".

The thing that makes this confusing is the introduction of a totally new degree. The 1.Klasse was awarded in conjunction with the silver star (I´ve not found any reference to the actual size of the silver star, but possibly it was smaller than 80mm, given the size of the neck cross). The 50mm cross with silvered eagles was worn from a sash, making this a strange hybride of neck cross and GC.

I´ve never seen an award case for the 1.klasse, nor a document, hence I can't comment on those.

"The 1943 Grand Cross 8 pointed star will be harder to tell the difference over time with the 1943 1st class breast star. Frosting fades easy in a short time like the frosting on Luftwaffe badges and plated eagles thin out in time !! The construction of these breast stars are the same its only a matter of time the price will be the same in value!!"

Cej, if the size of the 1.Klasse silver star indeed is 80mm you're absolutely correct. Do you by any chance have any references that would confirm it?

cheers
Peter

[aenobarbo]

Let´s attempt a description of the ranges of the order of the German Eagle:

1.- 1937 regulations:

1.1.- Silver Medal:

1.1.a.- Army: NCOs
1.1.b.- Civil: individuals, workers, etc

1.2.- 3rd Class Cross:

1.2.a.- Army: Lieutenant to Captain
1.2-b.- Civil: businessman, lower class officials, etc

1.3.-2nd Class Cross:

1.3.a.- Army: Commander to Lt Colonel
1.3.b.- Civil: Mayors, Councilors, entrepreneurs with international interests

1.4.- 1st Class Cross:

1.4.a.- Army: Oberst to Major General
1.4.b.- Civil: Managing & Company Directors

1.5.- 1st Class with Star:

1.5.a.- Army: Brigade Generals
1.5.b.- Civil: State Secretaries, Political Hierarchies

1.6.- Grand Cross:

1.6.a.- Army: Generals
1.6.b.- Civil: Ministers


2.- 1937-39 regulations (swords for Army):

2.1.- Bronze Medal:

2.1.a.- Army: Troops
2.1.b.- Civil: individuals, workers, etc

2.2.- Silver Medal:

2.2.a.- Army: NCOs
2.2.b.- Civil: employers, etc

2.3.- 3rd Class Cross:

2.3.a.- Army: Lieutenant to Captain
2.3.b.- Civil: businessman, lower class officials, etc

2.4.- 2nd Class Cross:

2.4.a.- Army: Commander to Lt Colonel
2.4.b.- Civil: Mayors, Councilors, entrepreneurs with international interests

2.5.- 1st Class Cross:

2.5.a.- Army: Oberst to Major General
2.5.b.- Civil: Managing & Company Directors

2.6.- 1st Class with Star:

2.6.a.- Army: Brigade Generals
2.6.b.- Civil: State Secretaries, Political Hierarchies

2.7.- Grand Cross:

2.7.a.- Army: Generals
2.7.b.- Civil: Ministers

[Peter J.]

Excellent Pablo It´s obvious that the regulations from 1943 came into practise in order to make a wider differentiation between the different ranks. According to Klietmann this was confirmed 7th of March 1944:

Bronze Verdienstmedaille:
Manschaften

Silberne Verdienstmedaille:

Unteroffiziere mit und ohne portopee

V.Klasse:

Leutnant to Hauptmann

IV.Klasse:

Major

III.Klasse:

Oberstleutnant to Oberst

II.Klasse:

Generalmajor to Generalleutnant

I.Klasse:

Commanding General

Grosskreuz:

Generaloberst to Generalfeldmarschall

Apparently only Commanding Generals were eligible for the newly instituted 1.Klasse.

cheers
Peter