HJ Hochland Lager 1936

[Jo Rivett]

So let's sum up the criteria used to ascertain originality on this badge. It is obvious no one has yet turned up a photo of this actual badge in wear. This, in itself, would not be enough to condemn it, but it certainly doesn't help to prove originality.

It appears Jo is skeptical of the badge and believes those with the swivel button attachment to be reproductions as this type of attachment is not pre 1945. I have to admit I've never seen this type attachment on any other pre-1945 badge.

Is the composition of the badge not in line with pre-1945 badges/tinnies? I certainly want to learn and this discussion could be quite valuable to further research into this badge.

The first piece and the piece I posted have a remarkable similarity in materials, pin and somewhat similar design. There is also a 1934 dated badge in the link with Jo provided.

If, indeed, the numbered ones are fakes, we also need to imagine and think of the logic of a faker. Why would someone go to the trouble of making these badges and then individually numbering several, all with a different number? Seems like a lot of trouble to go to when they could just stamp out a bunch in a hurry. I doesn't seem the extra effort of stamping a unique number on several pieces would justify the additional profit.

If they wanted to "enhance" the product, why use the numbers they did with a range, currently seen on examples provided of several thousand going from the 2000 range to the 5000 range? Why not just start at 2000 for example, and then go up incrementally to 3000?

Alex's theoretical scenario actually makes some sense.

HI Richard, i must be turning into a WAF addict..loging on whilst on holiday?
Bashfully, i must admit thought that it`s giving me great pleasure to watch Colin, and now Alex, walking straight into a brick wall, getting up, and walking straight back into it. Unfortunately Richard, even though it seemed at first that you were genuinely looking for an answer, i have to add you to this list now as well
Unlike AlexK, who cant even be bothered to read my posts here, (and has the necessity to actually post that he has not) and unlike Colin, it seems that you have actually bothered to read them

Richard, a very good point:

I have to admit I've never seen this type attachment on any other pre-1945 badge.

To which any detractor could prove me wrong on, by simply showing, but 1 further example of this modern swivel attachment on a Third Reich item.
But they cannot, instead, as we see with Colin, would rather chase after a "10 year old vet story" instead of opening up a history book.
But Richard.... whats the rest about mate?

If, indeed, the numbered ones are fakes, we also need to imagine and think of the logic of a faker. Why would someone go to the trouble of making these badges and then individually numbering several, all with a different number? Seems like a lot of trouble to go to when they could just stamp out a bunch in a hurry. I doesn't seem the extra effort of stamping a unique number on several pieces would justify the additional profit.

And the fake HJ Leistungsabzeichen all individually numbered?
And the fake HJ Ehrenzeichen, all individually numbered?
And the fake Golden Party Badges, all individually numbered?
And the many, many more fakes, all individually numbered?
This, is a valid point of argument?

If you are going to do yourself a favor this year, then let it be this.
Dont ever ask, Why would a faker do this or that - because they do it, for this exact reason.

Stand der Dinge.
You have on this thread, ME Someone who is "claiming" to be extensively knowledgeable on small badges, someone who shares facts and figures in-print, Someone who researches, and can factually back up what he says. And you have the, i guess at this point it is clear that the correct word is opposition, but for the sake of sharing love, lets call it, my detractors. What should detractors do? What should people do, who dont agree with what someone, who is claiming all of this research and knowledge, says?
Well firstly they need to read what that individual has written and researched, then take out the pieces they dont agree with, and challenge them using a well built, and well researched case. This is what i have done in my book. I have not written a few pages of nonsensical waffling, and challenged on-line persona`s because of what they have said on WAF, or any forum, or what i personally feel about them, i have gone after people who have written 10,20,30 and more, Militaria research books.

I will let you in on a secret. After a book is done, after many years of research are finished and it is being printed, there will always be that "feeling" of, "have i covered everything correctly? .. have i forgotten something that will turn up 1 week after the book is out, and be used by the detractors to challenge the whole book..?" thats a normal reaction i guess, well if you attempt a project on the scale of my book, it is.
There were even moments when i contemplated not loging onto another forum again, simply because of the drivel posted by Colin and his sort that you can read all the time. I dont think that "fearful" would be the right word, but i thought along the lines of;
I have done my part, the rest is up to them, no need for me to ever post on a forum again. And why not? ALL the older dealers think like this, and are content to list a DJ, or BDM knife or other fantasy item on their site and not feel the need to answer any questions online, even though we all know that they are selling us modern fakes.
BUT with a small amount of personal satisfaction i might add, threads like this just add more credibility to my research, and serve to show the greater community just how necessary a book like mine is today.
I can, and am prepared to - help you learn Mathematics.... but a prerequisite is that you need to be able to read and write before you join my class. The classroom attire is casual, but dragging your half-asleep body into my class wearing flip-flops and a straw hat, chewing gum and repetitively singing the same chorus line, is not acceptable.

[dkelley]

My acquisition of the 1936 Hochland enamel example I posted was purchased before 1995. The only information that existed in that day as far as I am aware was David Littlejohn's book called "The Hitler Youth, published in 1989, page 232,233. The badge was listed in with the tinnies. His description was as follows: "(10) Hochland Camp 1936. This example has an embossed number (1003) on the front, but it also exists without a number. The number may have indicated that it was worn by an official of the camp."

John Angolia also wrote a book called "J.R. Angolia 'The HJ' vol. II." Published in 1991, both these authors were considered very credible authors of their day. In volume II, page 208,209 Angolia also categorizes this badge with the tinnies and made the following remarks: "(73) Hochland Camp 1936. This example has an embossed number (1003), but also exists without a number."

It is interesting to note both examples noted by these two authors are identical. In that day, I was there, and used these two authors to accredit the item I purchased solely based on the opinions from these two authors. I tend to believe that just because these reference books are now 22 years old or so, and for some spans a lifetime for younger collectors. I myself began collecting in 1971, a span of 41 years. In that day, both of these authors were highly respected and considered a credible source. I know, because I was there! Upon examination of my badge, I could not find any reason that would make me believe the badge was anything but authentic. Weitze had it, another trusted source, so I bought it. We all know that copies wee made 22 years ago, but. . . not near to the degree of accuracy of what we see today.

The judgement I made on this piece was solely based on the opinions of these 3 men. So why should we discount the older publications when it seems that a single person questioned the authenticity of this badge and concluded, probably through a forum, that questions all of a sudden became the focus of a witch hunt? The next thing you know is a forum leader makes a derogatory remark about a subject badge and all of the sudden, the shift from a healthy discussion to "burning at the stake" attitudes crop up in large number out of the respect of that individual's personal knowledge. The parallel is frighteningly close as it relates to these authors. The very same MO occurred over the Memel Medal. For 5 years only one variation was considered genuine period. Today we have a respected forum member from Italy who displayed several variations.

These summer camp outs lasted two weeks and even three weeks, bringing up to 9,000 HJ participants. For myself, my enamel example was just too correct to have been a copy through comparing other fakes discovered from the same time frame, 22 years ago.

I believed and still to this day this example IMHO is authentic period. With each artefact crossing my desk received a very thorough examination. Looking for design flaws, materials, crispness, etc. after a while you get a natural instinct whether an item could be authentic or a potential fake. My conclusion was at the time was no one could have duplicated this item without an original die and the proper materials. The quality of workmanship was simply too good for the 1995ish to allow other fakes to stand up to the plate. They simply did not measure up. Perhaps some of the older forum members may understand what I am trying to say is an accurate depiction of the way things were. Whether all true, or all false or some right or some wrong, one cannot discount the published works freshly printed and the ultimate sale at that time came from Helmut Weitze. Same as Detlev Niemann, his offerings were sold almost immediately once on-line. For those who remember, no one questioned his judgement. These men were considered masters of their own field. Today some do and some don't. One thing for sure, more provenance would most likely put this all the bed, and with a happy ending.

With best wishes,
Dan

[Jo Rivett]

Lets walk into another brick wall why not...

Hi Dan
Hope i am not getting you mixed up with another Dan Kelley. If i am, i apologize.
YES, your post says it all, know who you are quoting, know what they are saying, (and have said) and IF YOU DONT AGREE, then simply build a case against them, using facts, history, common logic and the rest. This means that you have to actually read what they have written first
If you are, who i think you are, then i can help you too, and i know that you can read (we have exchanged mails i believe in the past)

Now, as i said, know what your detractors are saying, & once more, if i am confusing you with another Dan Kelley in Colorado, my apologies ... Let`s go...
Dan Kelley and small badges...

FANTASY BADGE
FAKE BADGE
FANTASY BADGE
FANTASY MARKINGS...

Thats only $1000.- on fake rubbish so far..nothing to worry about..When i get back home, if anyone would like me to continue?, i have saved screen shots of the fakes and fantasy small badges that have been sold on your site since 2007, and there are quite a few.
YOUR SITE meaning that i am assuming, that you are the same Dan Kelley- if i am wrong, forgive me

[colin davie]

Jo I do read what you write, which is not easy as 90% of it is you flabbering about how fabulous you are.

So it is obvious that the notion that these attachments are not period is indeed no more than just your opinion, which is fine, but not enough for me and I'm sure many others.
C

edit: Have an old hard drive from a computer that pooped it's pants years ago. Hoped it might have a photo of something in wear of these badges, it didn't, but I did find these 2 images of a badge which I took off Manion's Repro section, so they were selling these as copies.

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/692/5qsc.jpg/]

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/801/3cbf.jpg/]

[jabnus]

Regarding the past page of posts and post #47 in particular: there are a lot of assumptions and "what ifs", but it's all speculation at best and absolutely no evidence at all.

There is a big problem with several HJ awards and it's an ever bigger problem that many people still ignore this problem: we know that for some awards originals have been made and even awarded: The HJ Ehrenzeichen fur Verdiente Ausländer, or the HJ Leistungsabzeichen come to mind. Photographic evidence of these exist, but judging from photo's alone it's impossible to see from what maker they are, or which one are the originals. Calling thus all copies on the market original is crazy. The HJ Ehrenzeichen for Verdiente Ausländer has undoubtedly been made, but because of the many fakes it's impossible to say (yet) which ones the originals are. The HJ Leistungsabzeichen is one of the biggest minefields in collecting and thanks to Jo we know of a number of them that are definatly fake. But buying badges that RESEMBLE the ones in the photo's and call them all good is asking for trouble, or as Jo would say: "tears before bedtime" when finding out that they are fake after all.

Has the Hochland badge been made? Would a photo if it showed up prove anything regarding all the different badges on the market? In my opinion not.

Regarding post #47: im very sorry to disappoint you but all the names you mention are known for either their books to be outdated and full with mistakes, or for selling fakes, some of them on purpose. I can point out a great number of fakes on Weitzes site without much trouble to find them. Angolia has many many mistakes in his books and even Littlejohn's books contain wrong information. I fear with great fears for any collection that is based on those books and sellers, and for collections of people who still think everything written down there is correct. While the books sure had their purpose over the years and some were really pioneer works (i still treasure them as they gave me a lot of pleasure) any collector who has kept up with new findings in his area of collecting, should know (the) many mistakes in those books.


While it is in some cases and books content even understandable that mistakes exist, simply because of the fact that at the time not as much was known as today, and because the writers were not native speakers who could read period archive work, it is in my opinion quite crazy to still defend bad items as in post #47 as real, because of those old and completely out of date books.


Another point that many collectors seem to overlook is that many high quality fakes were made post 1945. Stating that this was not possible before 1995 is quite asthonishing. If the knowledge was present to make high quality items pre-1945, why would it then not be possible to do so in 1950, 1960, 1970, et cetera? If it was possible before 1945 it was possible after too.


And yet another point that many overlook:

what a hassle to go to, to sell a dozen 25euro badges, which is what I paid for mine years ago, individually numbered and the numbers also coloured red and use an attachment from no-where

So, why make a number of fake items with such characteristics? Well judging the many fake badges in many collections and a period of (several) decades these are doing rounds, it's not hard to imagine why they were made. I wonder who has all a hochland badge in their collection? 25 a piece, say we guess low and guess 500 made ... x 25 = 12500 euro. This is alot of money now, but was a lot more several years ago. I suppose you get the point....


best regards,
Gaston

[colin davie]

Gaston when it comes to the HJ Ehrenzeichen fur Verdiente Ausländer you are speaking for yourself and your friends only. An original has been obtained from a recipient and another from a US vet. OK argue it is thin ice if you must, but it is still ice and not just thin air... I know you don't like it, but there it is. I am happy with what I have and also happy to watch you guys argue yourselves blue in the face over it, on you go.

I only watched Manion's years ago, been about 8 years since I looked there, but they had a terrible reputation for trying to pass fakes as real, so if they put things in their repro section then the piece must have been seen as a no hoper when it came to extra $$$'s. The Aurich HJ Ehrenzeichen fur Verdiente Ausländer could be found in the repro section pretty much in every colour in every auction, so that was a big clue about those and the 1936 badge above IMO. I never saw any of the button device badges in either the section for fakes or the many pages of good tinnies, the pages would run into the teens, I know that because I would have grabbed the pics and there are none. It was a site where ppl tried to offload fakes on a regular basis, so them not turning up there does mean something.

Fakes must be distributed or they are pointless.
C

[colin davie]

Low number, don't know who it belongs to, posted on World War Militaria forum by der-hase-fee.

Kudos to GarryM who writes in the HJ forum...

" A book or pamphlet "Hochlandlager Wachvorschrift" was produced for guard personnel and those on such duties during the 1934 Hochlandlager. This mentions a badge that was produced by Gebiet 19 Hochland and given to visitors to the camp by gate personnel so that their arrival and time of leaving the area could be registered. Now, this does seem a perfectly good use for a Hochlandlager badge with a strange serial number roughly stamped onto it. A system that worked in 1934 is unlikely to have changed much two years later so perhaps the Hochlandlager 1936 badges with the serial numbers were held in the guard huts and issued to visitors for the duration of their stay in the camp. It makes perfect sense to me but without more evidence it remains a theory."

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/40/57x4.jpg/]

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/89/b6zq.jpg/]

[dkelley]

Hi Gaston,

I wanted to thank you for your remarks concerning thread #47. Of course I am aware that many reference books in use, even today are filled with mistakes in them and some even blatant mistakes. I am also aware the NSDAP sympathy badges are controversial because nobody can prove them otherwise. Nonetheless those items have been removed in spite the fact in their description that were identified as controversial, etc. I am not though, going to get into a pissing match with troublemakers. I am here for the exact same reason you are; to learn, discuss and participate in a hobby we all enjoy. But all this negative rhetoric makes me sick at my stomach. Gaston, I compliment your remarks. That bit of information from the HJ forum is an interesting one, but still speculative. To bounce this back and forth at nausem is not what the forum was created for. Mud slinging, taking pot shots at one another, and the negative demeanor this discussion has become is NOT why I have been an Association Member since 2001. At least you have made an honest attempt to bring some civility to all this. I can't take it anymore. I'm out. I see very well there is nothing more to contribute that will bring a smile. Thanks for your remarks

All the best,
Dan

[Richard]

And the fake HJ Leistungsabzeichen all individually numbered?
And the fake HJ Ehrenzeichen, all individually numbered?
And the fake Golden Party Badges, all individually numbered?
And the many, many more fakes, all individually numbered?
This, is a valid point of argument?

Jo, let's think about the above examples. All of these are expected to be numbered as they are individually awarded pieces with corresponding documents and lists of recipients. Not having them numbered would make them stick out like a sore thumb and immediately label them as fakes. The only alternative would be to produce the replacement "B" versions of the HJ Leistungsabzeichen or the Hitler special award Golden Party Badges which carry no number, the latter of which has also been reproduced ad nauseum.

With the Hochland Lager badge, no one knows anything about why they would be numbered, award documents don't exist and a faker could do just as well producing badges without unique numbers and expect to make about as much as going through the trouble of numbering so many. Why bother numbering a badge individually if it is a fantasy badge to begin with or if the originals, if there are any, weren't numbered anyway? The profit margin between uniquely numbered and unnumbered fantasy pieces wouldn't really justify the extra effort.
Richard V

[Richard]

Here is one that just sold on German ebay.
Richard V

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Abzeichen-Jug...item5af54f6f81