HJ Hochland Lager 1936

[Jo Rivett]

So where did they buy these?
Pete

If they are fantasy badges, the same as the enameled version above, then the answer to your question is; They didn't!

But surely, with so many HJ kids at these camps, and with so many variations of this badge, it will be easy to toss the "fantasy" theory out of the window pretty early into this conversation, with either an in-wear image of a happy kid with his camp-shop bought badge, or a mention that these were allowed to be made. After all, we are not talking about a badge as rare as the HJ award for verdiente Ausläsländer - even though more than one in-wear image of that badge is known - we are talking about mass produced wares, for the kids..

The boxed plaques? Why would a kid have to buy one? this kind of thing was usually won, or given as a prize.

[Richard]

So do any period photos or written statutes exist of the non-portable awards for the 1929 Reichsparteitag, or any of the other non-portable Reichsparteitag awards? If not, what would allow these to be termed as original? Is there solid provenance for these? Are there statutes from the period that proved these existed? Where do we draw the line between what is accepted as original and what may be post war produced? Of all the items we collect, how many of them can actually be traced with iron clad provenance and period photos vs. verbal hearsay? What shall we, as collectors, deem as proof that something is period vs. something that is suspect?

This hobby becomes more difficult with time as there is not enough proof in paper, photos or direct provenance to ascertain originality of many of the items we believe to be original. Then again, it is difficult to prove something is fake unless we know who produced it, we produced it ourselves or it doesn't conform to any known production methods/materials which can be proven as period. I can say anything is fake and ask you to prove otherwise just as easily as I can say anything is real and ask you to prove otherwise. If the proof doesn't exist, how can anyone believe one way or the other?
Richard V

[Darin S.]

A period photo showing one of these in wear would answer a lot of questions. There seems to be a lot of them on the market, I would think that somebody got photographed wearing one at some time somewhere. The H.J. were photographed quite often during the period. If these badges were made or issued during the period there should be a photo of one them somewhere being worn.

[Richard]

Things we see in abundance which were issued for specific events, should be able to be seen in some period photo somewhere. Where do we draw the line on the rarer items of which no period photos, statutes, regulations or direct provenance exist? Do we research materials and construction methods and assume these will point to originality?
Richard V

[Jo Rivett]

So do any period photos or written statutes exist of the non-portable awards for the 1929 Reichsparteitag, ....

Richard, I am not talking about a period pictured of a non-portable plaque/award in-wear, in-hand of otherwise, i am talking about a photo of a kid, wearing either a:
Enameled HOCHLANDLAGER badge
A Bronze HOCHLANDLAGER badge with number
A Bronze HOCHLANDLAGER badge without a number
As Darin says, there are enough HJ photos and documents of kids wearing all sorts, even the rarest items that you dont see often at all. So given their abundance on the market today, well..... 2 plus 2 really on that one.

Where do we draw the line between what is accepted as original and what may be post war produced?

There is no line, because lots of what is accepted as original, is far from original. So the only line that needs to be drawn, is around 1945. We need to wind all the way back, and start covering - RESEARCHING - the items we are collecting from scratch.

Then again, it is difficult to prove something is fake unless we know who produced it

This, is where you are very wrong.

[colin davie]

Here is an original photo showing some proof as requested.

If one uses a powerful microscope one can CLEARLY see on the right of the picture under the tree a table selling a fine selection of camp plaques and badges. The boys manning the table are sitting bored, because behind them in the distance can be seen another table collecting everyone's pocket-money by selling images of the Swedish Gymnastics team who are in town for the Olympics. This of course could explain if many badges are found in mint condition, the boys were skint and had no money left for a badge or plaque.

Not everyone will accept this proof... because they are frightened of forensics and living in the dark ages.

I have a badge with the number and button on the back that should be thrown in the bin, but I will keep it, because I don't see any proof that suggests that I should do otherwise.
C

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/wfv6.jpg/]

[John T]

I never believed in the 36 enamel version but I will keep an open mind although I have still not seen one that I am a fan of.

The first badge posted has a good chance to be a Deschler produced piece based on the reverse fittings as they are a match to the 34 marked Deschler examples.

[jabnus]

Errrrm?

Mr Davie, im not following you around the forum or want to discredit you, but this is the second time in one week where you post something on the forum that doesn't make much sense.

Maybe im blind, but that photo says nothing at all and only shows a few tents with a bench around a tree? Am i really blind or is there a sign somewhere there that reads "Campshop"? I suppose it's sarcasm you're trying to put in your message, but it is definately very confusing for the many non native speakers on the forum.

Forensic evidence... now we are getting somewhere! I keep repeating myself (and will do so many more times from now on), but it would be nice to have a new forumsection where only topics could be made about questionable items, that are then decently researched with for example a microscope.

Richard, i can follow your reasoning but it's actualy quite easy: we draw the line at the point where our common sense starts to tell us there is something wrong. Sooner or later every (bad) item will be subjected to questions that start to ring alarm bells. From there on we try to search for a little thing called "evidence".This can be in period pictures, in period paperworks and can from now on also be found with microforensics. Just believe something is real because there is no black on white evidence, but instead a nice story someone told someone else, who posted it on a forum and which was then put in a reference book as truth is not the correct way of understanding or proof or originality. As has already been pointed out numerous times on the forum: the number of fake items accepted as originals is very high and much higher as some want to believe.


best regards,
Gaston

[colin davie]

jabnus sorry for confusing you.

I own one of these badges that Jo suggests should be instantly thrown in the bin because the fitting was never used in the Third Reich (whilst he was telling someone else not to just post opinions LOL), no problem... please show me yours.

Pouring poison on a badge never even handled, no surprise there, but it has nothing to do with anything other than hot air opinions of jpg's.

Dion at MD Militaria has one for sale, chip in and buy it for analysis.
C

BTW I have been looking at my collection via high magnification for 7 years. I know that fact keeps getting ignored, but there you go.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=239543

Look forward to the fair and un-bias analysis of Dion's badge.

[Jo Rivett]

we draw the line at the point where our common sense starts to tell us there is something wrong.

Thats a great way to sum it up Gaston

[Jo Rivett]

BTW I have been looking at my collection via high magnification for 7 years. I know that fact keeps getting ignored, but there you go.

Colin, you have already been using Micro-analysis - for 7 years? then you will surely have something other than your, unfortunate, repetitive insults, to add to this thread. Especially seeing you own of of these badges. No? No Colin, until i read some proper research from you on this tropic, i will have to say that you are telling us porkies.

I have a badge with the number and button on the back that should be thrown in the bin, but I will keep it, because I don't see any proof that suggests that I should do otherwise.
]

Then you missed the article i wrote on attachments in the 2012 Spring edition of International Medal Collector. Find it, read it, understand it.
Never mind, i covered it again, in even more detail in my book. See: Attachments chapter - or get someone to send you a copy.

It is a pity that once again, in the space of 7 days, i read nothing more than insulting, baiting posts from you. There are people who are genuinely interested in finding out more. I am more than willing to devote my time to helping them, and sharing what i know. The problem though, are thread crashers like yourself, who, as you have a few times now, claimed this, and claimed that, yet other than spitting fire, have offered nothing! May i politely suggest that you come down off your high horse, take the wasps out of your mouth, and post something interesting, factual, of relevance, or - nothing at all.

How can any thread progress and deliver results, when it is constantly being derailed by a Troll? It is also surely not easy-reading for others.
Maybe this is the point? To just Troll a thread, and indeed person, in order to derail it, so that we dont probe further, dont debate further, let our personal feelings get in the way and walk away in a huff. If that is your aim Colin, then you have your parties mixed up. The nature of my game, is c-l-a-r-i-f-i-c-a-t-i-o-n for the greater good of the hobby. No personal feelings on my side, no Luftwaffe goblets to sell, and no senseless bashing of items for the sake of it, or because they possibly belong to someone who i dont agree with, do not know, on a virtual, social platform. You are not ruffling my feathers Colin, all you are doing is turning a potentially interesting thread into a one-sided mud slinging match.

[dkelley]

I too am pessimistically optimistic. More research is needed for sure. I found an older thread discussing this badge with other links attached. The threads then were swinging "bad." This thread is very interesting.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums//showthread.php?t=622144

From what info I have gathered is the HJ 1936 Hochland badge was never recognized as an award, but was simply a participation badge for the event. The example I posted was acquired from Helmut Weitze several years ago. To date I have never found another in this condition.

With best wishes,
Dan

[colin davie]

@ Josef... I haven't de-railed anything, just pointed out that you've called the badges with a number, without a number and enameled all doubtful without a shred of evidence. That's not a porkie it's the truth. Look back over the topic and see that for yourself.

Just because you haven't seen an attachment before doesn't make it "never used in the Third Reich", that's another fact.

@ Alex K, interesting to hear you say you have received your badge direct from a participant, any more you can add? I bought mine from a dealer.
C

[Jo Rivett]

@ Josef... I haven't de-railed anything, just pointed out that you've called the badges with a number, without a number and enameled all doubtful without a shred of evidence. That's not a porkie it's the truth. Look back over the topic and see that for yourself.

Just because you haven't seen an attachment before doesn't make it "never used in the Third Reich", that's another fact.

@ Alex K, interesting to hear you say you have received your badge direct from a participant, any more you can add? I bought mine from a dealer.
C

Dear Colin.
You dont need to be like me, and invest money and time into a subject as banal as the attachments used in Europe on small badges from 1900-to present. You dont need to visit countless Third Reich, as well as modern small badge (and attachment) manufacturers in Germany (and other countries in Europe) in order to learn more - year after year after year. You dont need to physically work in a small badge manufacturers (for free) learning the hands on of enameling. You dont need to spend thousands on reproductions in order to take them apart and study them. And you dont need to invest more money and time writing all that down, with the sole intention of providing actual, factual, historically correct information, for the next generation of collector, because i have done that all for you.

But you are not interested in research are you Colin, otherwise instead of whatever personal problem you have with me, you would have closed your cake-hole, and for the benefit of your fellow collectors here, brought a few facts to this thread. If your intention here, or on any other thread, is to argue with me, on a subject that i consider myself exceptionally well versed on, then you will have to bring something more than your repetitive, and to be honest boring posts of late, to a debate. Which you dont seem to be able to do.

Anything else from you Colin, is outright disrespect. I spend my time writing articles for collectors magazines and my site, for free. I have just financed a book that, in all reality instead of the book i could have bought 35 of your HJ verdiente ausländer badges with. yes Colin, 35 of them, that is how expansive it is to finance a book, an investment that will not make me rich either. So these fleeting, cocky comments that keep popping up with, just keep in mind that you are not talking to someone who just "says" something for the sake of it. Behind every yeah or nay from me, are tens of thousands of dollars of research, hours and patience - into the very subject that you are trying to belittle me on.

My patience with you has run out though. It is a Hitlerjugend badge, or pretending to be, therefore, future factual information by myself, will be shared on the appropriate forum, the HJ-research forum.

I have a plane to catch, so wont be on here for a few weeks, just so you dont start reading anything else into my absence Colin. As far as i know, Gary re-opened your account at the HJ forum, so feel free to show any of your 7 years of in-depth micro-analysis there - or here. I have only been doing it for 6 years, and have around 17`500 images so far, so you must certainly have at least one or two to share?

Gate 13 boarding, thats me

Colin asks: interesting to hear you say you have received your badge direct from a participant, any more you can add

tut tut tut, the secret my Dear, lies not in who the item was acquired from, but rather in the item itself.

[colin davie]

I'm interested in what Alex K has to say, no-one has a right to just disregard his input, which like that of others could be valuable.
C