Peter J. said: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"notice how the eagles wings are coated with a grey color, and are not all gold colored, so do not shine it up."
Are you seriously suggesting your cross is coated with with grey colour These pieces were made in silver (ag) and the oxidation will easily penetrate the gold colour. Mark my words, it would shine up like a Christnas tree, should you dip it. As for early or not, how can you tell
cheers
Peter
Peter, this medal kodaki owned was never cleaned, and was awarded pre war in the 30's (how I know it is early, and same period as the one I have basicly)most people who find Eagle orders like this cannot keep their hands off them to leave them alone if found first hand (first collector to ever own the after the vet himself), and must insist they clean off the coating put there by the manufacturer (21)....as it is clear from the photos even the one that started the thread still has minute traces of the grey coating in the same areas low spots that escaped the cleaning some nimrod gave it to shine it up ,put there to accentuate the eagles high points . It is clear from my close up photos , you can see it was painted on by hand between the legs, inner wings, but not the chest or legs.
To shine that off removes a part deliberate to its accentuation of the eagle to be more appealing to the eye, and subdues it in light to make the eagle stand out . I have photos of every eagle on kodakis award, and they are all the same....all with the grey coating .
Another reason why not to change things found first hand from vets, as ,even finishes that are washes can be interpreted by the newby to be crud or as you said oxidation which is not the case(for example on a IAB with bronze wash on zinc...) can be easily cleaned off thinking it is dirt, but just removed the delicate finish. Taking digital photos of new found vet items helps detect the original traces of finish left not removed by normal wear or reaction to the zinc bas metal if store properly over decades in trunks or attics.
Not all collectors are collectors, most are dealers, and try to make old things look new, and in turn reduce the value of items for that reason. You can believe what you want, just pointing this out, as the silver on eagle orders are plated gold on top of silver , and if you clean that part with anything abrasive, it will remove the thin gold plating and expose the silver , thusly damaging the finish. (same with the eagles factory grey added finish as a factory finish also)
Another reason why I no longer mess with shows, or dealers, as they are the biggest offenders in most part or the collectors they get items from(unless they leave things as found if a vet find, second hand collector buys are almost always fooled with ) , then when they want top prices, when top prices are only pertaining to items left alone as found.
It takes many years to correct this flaw in all of us who collect to have the guts to leave things alone. We all have made this mistake, and learned the hard way. I wouldn't pay top price for any eagle order that has been over cleaned, just the same as a finger print on an ss dagger...leave it there, and get 95% full value, clean it off with simichrome like some of the ss collectors here, who claim they do not clean their daggers, have found they ruined more ss daggers with their shining things up, and lying about it....yet no marks on the blade from the runners , put there to keep it from falling out of the scabbard(they are supposed to be there as is this grey on this EO). They still get lauded by the newbys who do not pay close attention damage clearly visible done by the collector , instead they think he is really cool cause he has so many daggers...(instead should be chastised for his destructive ways to many fine items that left as found would be worth the actual asking price)
Now it seems after many years , the one offender has sold almost all the worst of his ruined daggers diminished by more than 50% for his act,but yet did the new buyers a bad disservice , and they paid him a profit on a crappy ruined finish ss dagger, have started over , and now have seen the light, but admonished me for objectively pointing this fact out on items claimed to have been claimed by him to be "MINT" and that is not what mint means, as in that so called mint blades example , pitting could easily still be seen on that blade clearly proving it was cleaned , as mint relates only to a original protected , un figer marked blade taken from stores in unused condition with factory finish, whose grind lines are part of the specs when it was manufactured, and I worked as a machinist in the aerospace industry making top secret government parts , and a specific finish is always in the blueprints, and even down to the breaks on the edges of parts when deburred. Same for German manufacturing of high awards ,and presentation items like eagle orders ,TK rings....etc. Its your choice to do what you want, just remember some day many decades from now, my words will ring true in your memory , and you just may change your mind, as un cleaned items will bring twice what cleaned items ruined by nimrods will.
"notice how the eagles wings are coated with a grey color, and are not all gold colored, so do not shine it up."
Are you seriously suggesting your cross is coated with with grey colour These pieces were made in silver (ag) and the oxidation will easily penetrate the gold colour. Mark my words, it would shine up like a Christnas tree, should you dip it. As for early or not, how can you tell
cheers
Peter
Peter, this medal kodaki owned was never cleaned, and was awarded pre war in the 30's (how I know it is early, and same period as the one I have basicly)most people who find Eagle orders like this cannot keep their hands off them to leave them alone if found first hand (first collector to ever own the after the vet himself), and must insist they clean off the coating put there by the manufacturer (21)....as it is clear from the photos even the one that started the thread still has minute traces of the grey coating in the same areas low spots that escaped the cleaning some nimrod gave it to shine it up ,put there to accentuate the eagles high points . It is clear from my close up photos , you can see it was painted on by hand between the legs, inner wings, but not the chest or legs.
To shine that off removes a part deliberate to its accentuation of the eagle to be more appealing to the eye, and subdues it in light to make the eagle stand out . I have photos of every eagle on kodakis award, and they are all the same....all with the grey coating .
Another reason why not to change things found first hand from vets, as ,even finishes that are washes can be interpreted by the newby to be crud or as you said oxidation which is not the case(for example on a IAB with bronze wash on zinc...) can be easily cleaned off thinking it is dirt, but just removed the delicate finish. Taking digital photos of new found vet items helps detect the original traces of finish left not removed by normal wear or reaction to the zinc bas metal if store properly over decades in trunks or attics.
Not all collectors are collectors, most are dealers, and try to make old things look new, and in turn reduce the value of items for that reason. You can believe what you want, just pointing this out, as the silver on eagle orders are plated gold on top of silver , and if you clean that part with anything abrasive, it will remove the thin gold plating and expose the silver , thusly damaging the finish. (same with the eagles factory grey added finish as a factory finish also)
Another reason why I no longer mess with shows, or dealers, as they are the biggest offenders in most part or the collectors they get items from(unless they leave things as found if a vet find, second hand collector buys are almost always fooled with ) , then when they want top prices, when top prices are only pertaining to items left alone as found.
It takes many years to correct this flaw in all of us who collect to have the guts to leave things alone. We all have made this mistake, and learned the hard way. I wouldn't pay top price for any eagle order that has been over cleaned, just the same as a finger print on an ss dagger...leave it there, and get 95% full value, clean it off with simichrome like some of the ss collectors here, who claim they do not clean their daggers, have found they ruined more ss daggers with their shining things up, and lying about it....yet no marks on the blade from the runners , put there to keep it from falling out of the scabbard(they are supposed to be there as is this grey on this EO). They still get lauded by the newbys who do not pay close attention damage clearly visible done by the collector , instead they think he is really cool cause he has so many daggers...(instead should be chastised for his destructive ways to many fine items that left as found would be worth the actual asking price)
Now it seems after many years , the one offender has sold almost all the worst of his ruined daggers diminished by more than 50% for his act,but yet did the new buyers a bad disservice , and they paid him a profit on a crappy ruined finish ss dagger, have started over , and now have seen the light, but admonished me for objectively pointing this fact out on items claimed to have been claimed by him to be "MINT" and that is not what mint means, as in that so called mint blades example , pitting could easily still be seen on that blade clearly proving it was cleaned , as mint relates only to a original protected , un figer marked blade taken from stores in unused condition with factory finish, whose grind lines are part of the specs when it was manufactured, and I worked as a machinist in the aerospace industry making top secret government parts , and a specific finish is always in the blueprints, and even down to the breaks on the edges of parts when deburred. Same for German manufacturing of high awards ,and presentation items like eagle orders ,TK rings....etc. Its your choice to do what you want, just remember some day many decades from now, my words will ring true in your memory , and you just may change your mind, as un cleaned items will bring twice what cleaned items ruined by nimrods will.
I wouldn't dream of suggesting you being economical with the truth, but I'm flabbergasted to say the least. I've been collecting for 40 years and never have I heard or read anything about this grey colour supposedly being attached to any German decorations. I share your thoughts about not cleaning decorations though.
I don't know if the contents in the previous pages are related to language problems, but I stand by my views, as presented in various reference books. There are only three things we know for sure i.e the classes presented in the three announcements made in 1937, 1939 and late Dec. 1943, the introduction of the swords in 1939 and the change from "Stufe" to "Klasse" in 1943. The question about the introduction of the fan and the introduction of the PK-numbers, as well as the actual markings are still just assumptions IMO. In 1937 there were 17 different possibilities (I've included both ring suspension and fan suspension, as examples have presented here as such). Same thing with the 1939 version (although it's highly unlikely the ring suspension was still in use), 22 versions. The 1943 version contains only the fan version and you'll find 30 possible versions (not counting pieces with markings not accounted for in a plausible way).
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