general gau award

[ErichS]

I personally think the badge is Gau Muenchen. As Jow Wotka said, Muenchen is the Traditions Gau.

Bob hritz

Bob, like our conversation at the MAX, it's interesting that Munich didn't have its own badge due to it being the Capital of the movement.

[Matthew]

Different Gaue called this decoration different titles but I doubt it had anything to do with being solely a badge of Gau Munich (Or Gau Munich-Oberbayern Ehrenzeichen I presume).
Two reasons- first, should this be solely a Gau Munich award, it would most likely be awarded by that Gau only, much like the rest of Gau Decorations.

Second- the 'Traditions' part of the description referred to the badge itself rather than the Gau as in 'Traditions-Ehrenzeichen', not 'Traditions Gau' (which wasn't generally hyphenated when referring to it as in "Traditionsgau Munchen-Oberbayern"). Not an isolated case either- Luftwaffe was known for having their 'Traditionsnadels' which had little to do if any with Gau Munich-Oberbayern.

It certainly is a bit confusing, especially when a single piece is known by few different names- including as the picture below shown "A Badge of The Old Guard" (which BTW was the official name of a Frontbann pin as well) and probably most fitting for this award as no documented awards have surfaced given for outstanding service to the Gau or any other 'honorary reasons' with the exception of the "gold" award apparently (hence the obliterated date in the center).
That also makes perfect sense as the badge itself carries a date that is directly tied to the recipient's "joined at" date so why give it to someone who didn't or for different reasons.

Picture credit: HH and Thies

cheers

Matt

[Matthew]

3-5% smaller

Your's can only be topped by the 1923 made of massive 800 silver.

The solid silver specimens I had a chance to examine (8 pieces in total) were relatively all the same size which happened to be around 4% smaller then their hollow backed counterparts, which coupled with the fact that the front details are exactly same would give me a pause to begin with and certainly not 'top' any of the regular sized hollow backed 1923/25 Gau General Badges.


cheers

Matt

[Matthew]

25

Slightly different wording for its 1925 counterpart.
Picture credit: HH

cheers

Matt

[mloppkit]

I would think that this badge needs further investigation.
Would you want to share its measurements Michael?

cheers

Matt

Hi Matt, This is an original enamel hollow back 1925 badge, what dimensions are you after? Weight etc? What about it needs further investigation?

[Matthew]

Hi Matt, This is an original enamel hollow back 1925 badge, what dimensions are you after? Weight etc? What about it needs further investigation?

The height and width of the wreath if you could. If you have its weight that is always useful too.
Thank You in advance!

cheers

Matt

[Matthew]

What about it needs further investigation?

Details on your badge are different from the regular enameled 1925 badge.
Those details are die based and as such they are the same on every other original badge I have looked at.

cheers

Matt

[Matthew]

Different does not necessarily mean fake but what is unique and consistent on the type you show (it is 3rd I've seen) is lack of the wreath blackening, no plating/frosting/lacquer on the swastika's verso, gap between the wires of the pin, lack of the 'smoke effect' on the front of the wreath, etc.
Essentially it looks like the badge was produced without any secondary features- other than enamel- assembled skipping few other steps we see on other badges.
The die details and proportions seem to be a bit off as well.

I have compared your badge against an apparently unissued specimen so that we can see all of its details undisturbed or worn off- as you can see from the pics of the verso, there are few features not seen on the commonly accepted badge. Same with the front of it.

It would be interesting to see what the weight & measurements of it are.

cheers

Matt

[mloppkit]

Hi Mathew,

Different does not necessarily mean fake but what is unique and consistent on the type you show (it is 3rd I've seen) is lack of the wreath blackening, no plating/frosting/lacquer on the swastika's verso, gap between the wires of the pin, lack of the 'smoke effect' on the front of the wreath, etc.
- Mathew

Very nice work Mathew- great picture comparison, It indeed seems that there were two versions of the enameled 1925 General Gau badge. Is this the same with the 1925 painted Swaz type? I have no problem with the originality of both versions. The badge I show was thoroughly investigated for Graig Gottleibs Gau Badge book by Craig & Hermans amongst others and deemed a 'textbook' example- and has been in its case forever. Looking closer at it shows that the details are sharper than the other one you show- patricularly in the acorns at the front. The makers mark is equally sharp, I would hazard a guess that this is the '2nd' or later version. It also seems that the black enamel on this badge is more translucent than the other badge. I will take some measurements of it when I get a chance and it will be interesting to see if or any differences exist in size & weight between the two,

Cheers,
Michael

[Stan]

The solid silver specimens I had a chance to examine (8 pieces in total) were relatively all the same size which happened to be around 4% smaller then their hollow backed counterparts, which coupled with the fact that the front details are exactly same would give me a pause to begin with and certainly not 'top' any of the regular sized hollow backed 1923/25 Gau General Badges.


cheers

Matt

Matt, I have just checked the sizes of my Allgemeine Gau badges. They are as follows:

1923 Hollow: 44,19mm

1925 Solid: 44,21mm

Certainly not 4% different, more like 0.045%.

Stan

[Matthew]

Matt, I have just checked the sizes of my Allgemeine Gau badges. They are as follows:

1923 Hollow: 44,19mm

1925 Solid: 44,21mm

Certainly not 4% different, more like 0.045%.

Stan

Hello Stan,

Good to have you back in this discussion.
As you know I measured your badges as well. Not to say I never made a mistake but to make it many times over while getting the rest spot on seem strange.
Anyways, when I measure those I measure the wreath (not the sometimes protruding edges of swastika) vertically and horizontally.
As such the solid silver vs the hollow silver version as measured by me came to
43.2 x 44 vs 44.7 x 44.9 (W/H)

cheers

Matt

[Matthew]

Hi Mathew,
Very nice work Mathew- great picture comparison, It indeed seems that there were two versions of the enameled 1925 General Gau badge. Is this the same with the 1925 painted Swaz type?

Cheers,
Michael

Hello Michael,

Yes, the painted version follows the characteristics as highlighted on the 'regular' enameled badge in both years.
Craig Gottlieb who deemed this badge as textbook, sold one here: http://www.craiggottlieb.com/engine/...Filter=Archive

I am just intrigued as to why he called it 'textbook' when it is obvious it is different from the usual ones.
If you notice his badge although spot on on the front on both swastika and the wreath with yours, show no usual marks on the verso of the wreath.
Also no blackening, burnishing, frosting- essentially the same thing I mentioned earlier on.
Curiously enough he mentions in the description the badge retains its 'smoked frosted finish'. Anyone sees any there?

I have a feeling that this type of badge features a swastika that is very close to the commonly accepted type in measurements while the wreath will come back bit smaller. It is of course unsubstantiated guess that further investigation will help to clear up. Looking forward to it.

cheers

Matt

[Matthew]

Flipping through Gottlieb's Novel on Gau Badges here, this is what I came across in his Gau general Badge Chapter on page 218 and I quote:

(...)A study of the shapes of the digits on the reverse markings indicates that both types were produced using the same dies. (...) {when referring to 1923 and 1925 badges in both enamel and paint}.

The only other types he differentiates are the one with thin pin and the Alpacca badge. (essentially the same badge made in different materials and different hardware but same die). Solid silver is another story altogether.

Well, if both are made by the same die, both are textbook and both show glaring differences then some things just do not add up.

Too bad he is not here to explain what he meant, then again he was not very forthcoming when questioned on his 'facts' before he was expelled either.

cheers

Matt

[der-hase-fee]

As such the solid silver vs the hollow silver version as measured by me came to
43.2 x 44 vs 44.7 x 44.9 (W/H)

cheers

Matt

The considerable size difference might indicate the hollow one to be a copy.

[mloppkit]

Hello Michael,

Yes, the painted version follows the characteristics as highlighted on the 'regular' enameled badge in both years.
Craig Gottlieb who deemed this badge as textbook, sold one here: http://www.craiggottlieb.com/engine/...Filter=Archive

I am just intrigued as to why he called it 'textbook' when it is obvious it is different from the usual ones.
If you notice his badge although spot on on the front on both swastika and the wreath with yours, show no usual marks on the verso of the wreath.
Also no blackening, burnishing, frosting- essentially the same thing I mentioned earlier on.
Curiously enough he mentions in the description the badge retains its 'smoked frosted finish'. Anyone sees any there?

I have a feeling that this type of badge features a swastika that is very close to the commonly accepted type in measurements while the wreath will come back bit smaller. It is of course unsubstantiated guess that further investigation will help to clear up. Looking forward to it.
cheers
Matt

Hi Matt, Here are the measurements of the other Craig Gottlieb badge previously discussed. 59.89 to 59.98 mm from swaz tip to swaz tip in both directions and 48.81 mm wide from the right hand side wreath acorn to left hand side wreath - please see photos. Craig has deemed it authentic (with a lifetime money-back guarantee) and he has pointed out that he never has any problem with refunds if a piece is not authentic and I believe that he considers this piece very much original to the period. I have been sent the original description of this badge from his website as follows:

Outstanding example of the Allgemeine Gau Ehrenzeichen (General Gau Honor Badge) with 1925 date. This badge was awarded by multiple Gaus; hence the name. This is the more desirable enameled version and is a textbook example with double pin, maker's marking and '800' stamp (for 800 silver content), and correct die marks on the reverse of the wreath. While there was no known specific presentation case, this deluxe case was undoubtedly made for the award with a perfect fit, cutout for the pin, and the padded silken lid lining shows a deep impression of the award. The piece is in superb condition and certainly need never be upgraded. - Craig Gottlieb

There are no casting marks on this badge- only strike marks from the die and the makers mark is very clear and pronounced, there is certainly not in my experience any signs of this badge being a cast repro. I'm hoping you find these photos of the measurements useful and include a better photo of the rear of the badge in question, Best Regards, Michael.