Posted for Richarddwh:
What do you guys think?
What do you guys think?
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-Ralph Abercrombie -
It looks OK to me-- I brought the old thread back up where we were talking about other variants of these. This one looks like an intermediate stage between the "best" enamel ones and the awful crappy painted zinc ones.
The single rather than usual double line around the RZM doesn't seem particularly important--is it? The obverse letters, hyphen, sub-enamel design etc all look right....
Anybody? I'm outside my fields. -
Thanks Rick
The reason why I am concerned by the single line around the RZM is because the following website regards it as a "frequently encountered fake representation of the RZM mark". Upon reading this I became slightly concerned.
http://www.german-militaria.co.uk/RZMmarks.htm
The badge could either be a good fake with nice obverse, let down by the single circle RZM marking or an original that has a slight variation to the standard RZM marking. Does anyone else have a similar example to this one with a single circle surrounding the RZM ? Or any opinions on its authenticity?
Since I have purchased it recently from a well known dealer I have time to send it back for a refund or an exchange but I wouldn't wish to make a fool of myself by disputing the originality of a perfectly good standard NSDAP badge!Comment
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I have 15 NSDAP pins of different varieties, and they all have the double-circle RZM logo. 6 I am confident are original, 4 are absolutely fakes, and the rest are dubious to varying degrees.
Below, the one on the left is a fake. Maker M1/72.-Ralph AbercrombieComment
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Note the relative placement of the periods after the "P" in D. A. P.-Ralph AbercrombieComment
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Ralph thanks for your input
Jamie Cross is currently selling a couple of NSDAP badges http://www.thirdreichmedals.com/
His appear to have the full stop or period in the same place as the fake one exhibits. Now I really am
It worries me that none of your collection has single circle RZM marks. I hope that book you mentioned sayes something about it.Comment
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Opinions on the badge
I would respectfully disagree with you on the placement of the period next to the "P". Most authentic badges display the placement like that in the left image. (I have doubts about your right badge and I'd be very interested if you'd post pics of the backs of them).
I've been accumulating party membership badge pics off the net for quite some time in an attempt to get a handle on what's real. Finally I had several hundred of them so I put a site to help in authenticating party membership and sympathizer badges. It's located at:
http://nsdapbadges.tripod.com
As for the question regarding the one ring, it does not automatically mean the badge is fake. It is my understanding that there were badges produced with a single ring (but most single ring badges are fake). Yours is the only M1/42 badge I have ever seen and I really couldn't say whether it is fake or not without seeing other badges from the manufacturer. (I hope you don't mind but I swiped your pic - will remove on any request).
FroblerComment
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Frobler:
You have a great site; very informative and academic. I urge you to do a big article and send it to Benders' magazine (The Military Advisor") for publication.
I have the Grandpa of all fakes-which I shall send a copy of to you when I figure out how to do so with the digicam.Its a purported "Foriegners presentation badge" in silver. Rick has seen it; its' a classic British beauty from 1970. They go at Manions and at other auction sites for up to $5,000 now.
Cheers,
JeMcComment
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I think the grandpa of fakes goes to this rare "mistamped" example
is lot 386691 on www.epier.com. Its quite grotesque
Frobler, thats a excellent site, I just wish I had found it sooner. I feel enlightened already, I liked the examples of fakes it was useful to compare. Feel free to use the pic, I have e-mailed the dealer who I purchased the badge from and without prejudice asked about the RZM marking. After discussing it on this thread I am inclined to think its real though I am not 100% convinced. But than can you ever be these days?
But I will post what ever I can find out.
Also, I have a button-hole variation in painted zinc produced by M1/42 and that does have a double circle, but then that would have probably been produced later. So I am not sure if it is relevant to verifying the authenticity of badge in question.
Frobler, what is the best fake NSDAP badge you have identified and what showed it to be a reproduction.Comment
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RZM hallmark
Hi collectors.If u look in the ASSMAN reprint war time sales catalog the rzm with out a outer circle is documented.On reproes i have handled the pins are slightly higher.Your badge u sent back looked ok to me.Comment
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Single ring is not definitive
The more I examine the world of membership badges, the more I would say that a single ring is not definitive of a fake. I'm trying to get enough examples from the manufacturers to draw some conclusions. Having "M1/" before the number is also becoming an issue. I'm considering cross referencing NSDAP party membership badges with Frauenschaft badges (they appear to be the most common badge that share membership badge manufacturers).
http://nsdapbadges.tripod.com
FroblerComment
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The RIGHT badge
As I have learned more about this area, the right badge shown above is likely to fall into the category of a pre-RZM party membership badge. I have seen a number of other badges similar to this and I'm beginning to believe they are quite authentic. I would implore you to post a reverse as I need more examples to draw any concrete conclusions.
http://nsdapbadges.tripod.com
FroblerComment
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I also have to agree with Frobler that the badge on the left of Flak 40s scan cannot be deemed a fake because of the period placement. I have a badge that belonged to a family friend who was a party member in Austria. She gave me her pin and the period placement is like the badge on the left. Far to the outside of the P. Unfortunately it is in a frame so I can't bust it out to look at the reverse and the maker's mark.
Regarding the single circle RZM mark, it is like the round S versus the angular S in Souval badges controversy. Though the rule of thumb is preferential to the concentric circles, the lack thereof does not necessarily denote a fake. There probably are more fakes than originals with a single circle, but I have seen SS cap badges and political badges with the single circle that were 100%. The RZM mark had many variations and, unfortunately, the concentric circle, crossbar through the Z and parallel legs of the M is always touted as being the only original. I have seen originals with known provenance that exhibited exceptions to every one of these "rules". Leather items were very often without the outer circle as it was just too hard to get a clean stamp.
I would have few doubts about the authenticity of the badge in question and certainly would not condemn it as fake based on this one attribute alone. By the way, M1/42 is attributed to Kerbach & Isreal, Dresden.
Richard VComment
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Lazy M on rzm hallmarkQuestion
Question for Frobler?I have a BDMjM button nothing special but the RZM has the spiked M or lazy M with no outer circle.Dous this mean it is Trash or could it be authentic made out side the riech?YOUR opinion most kind please maccaComment
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another question for frobler..
Hello,
this question is about the white part of the enamle,will fakes ones glow(the white paint)under a black light?the reason i ask is i have 2 NSDAP membership buttons,one M1/102 button hole back that i purchased from a private party and the other a M1/162 button hole back button that i purchased from one of the bigger German dealers.the back of the M1/162 looks identicle to the one shown on your website,(I was impressed with that to by the way!)even the petina was the same-the enamle is in very good allmost perfect shape.my question/problem came when i was messing around with a blacklight and i held both buttons up to the light,the white part of the M1/162 seemed to glow compared to my other button that was right next to it.anyone have any thoughts ar ideas about this?
Yancy
(IMG)http://www.vortext.com/auslander/ima...oads/NSDAP.JPG(IMG)
(IMG)http://www.vortext.com/auslander/ima...NSDAPM1162.JPG(IMG)Comment
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