Early Hitler Youth Badge, Real?

[12thPanzer]

I dont really like the badge all too much personally, but in defense of them being "around"......here is a site that offers the same badge (early 1st pattern) for a pretty high price IMO. $165 for a at most $100 badge!??? Dan Kelleys Treasures of the 3rd Reich link: https://www.dkelley.net/Hitler_Youth...ugend%20HJ.htm

sorry, I cannot post pics just yet as I am a newer member. This RZM marking is new to me. The only other marking I have seen on the top reverse of these badges is "REDO" with the ges Gesch. Im guessing it is most likely Redo poisch or whatever, but i could be wrong

[blutundehre]

I dont really like the badge all too much personally, but in defense of them being "around"......here is a site that offers the same badge (early 1st pattern) for a pretty high price IMO. $165 for a at most $100 badge!??? Dan Kelleys Treasures of the 3rd Reich link: https://www.dkelley.net/Hitler_Youth...ugend%20HJ.htm

sorry, I cannot post pics just yet as I am a newer member. This RZM marking is new to me. The only other marking I have seen on the top reverse of these badges is "REDO" with the ges Gesch. Im guessing it is most likely Redo poisch or whatever, but i could be wrong

Redo is the makers name, and perfectly fine to see with Ges.Gesch., but the one you posted a link to as well as the one that started this thread, I don't believe in.
Dave

[Wim Vangossum]

The one showed with the link is a 100% fake. That's very clearly a version with the tilted "Z" in the logo. A feature you also can find on the fake "Hitler 1933" badges etc...

Regards, Wim

[blutundehre]

The one showed with the link is a 100% fake. That's very clearly a version with the tilted "Z" in the logo. A feature you also can find on the fake "Hitler 1933" badges etc...

Regards, Wim

Taking a closer look at both badges, I don't see any difference in them, IMO both are the same badge and fake.
Dave

[dolchmann07]

HJ pin

While I am no expurt on this type HJ pin (that started this thread), I have seen other pins with Ges Gesch and a RZM and no number, maybe they are all fakes, here are pictures of an example, the RZM is behind the button hole attachment.
I do not want to question anybodies thoughts here but I do not agree completly with the RZM and Ges Gesch and no number being a automatic fake.
This is my only point, and I would also like to ask is it a final conclusion that the Adolf Hitler 1933 enamel pins are all fake. I have seen RZM's especially in transitional periods look many ways.
I am just asking to increase my own knowledge of the art of finding the right material.
Look at this pin and see what you think. By the way this pin could be bad, I am aware of that.
Thanks for any responses,
Jack

[Wim Vangossum]

How does the RZM mark look like? The thick outer border, however correct for some early party pins make me also think of the Adolf Hitler 1933 badges???
If it had that weird rzm mark it could be from the same (fake) series.

Question: no number covered by the solder?

Regards, Wim

[blutundehre]

While I am no expurt on this type HJ pin (that started this thread), I have seen other pins with Ges Gesch and a RZM and no number, maybe they are all fakes, here are pictures of an example, the RZM is behind the button hole attachment.
I do not want to question anybodies thoughts here but I do not agree completly with the RZM and Ges Gesch and no number being a automatic fake.
This is my only point, and I would also like to ask is it a final conclusion that the Adolf Hitler 1933 enamel pins are all fake. I have seen RZM's especially in transitional periods look many ways.
I am just asking to increase my own knowledge of the art of finding the right material.
Look at this pin and see what you think. By the way this pin could be bad, I am aware of that.
Thanks for any responses,
Jack

Hi Jack,
What I state here on this thread is my opinion and may be completely wrong, however your party badge is interesting, but as Wim has asked do you have a better pic of the RZM mark and could there be a number underneath the solder. This is a very interesting discussion for sure.
Dave

[dolchmann07]

NSDAP party pin

Hello All,
Yes, it has the Z raised a little higher, not tilted. It has a thick outside border around the RZM, but unlike the one in the link and the first post.
The NSDAP party pin is even space between the RZM circles. I can not get any better pictures. But I can see it. Now it might have a number under the solder, but I have no way of knowing.
But I never knew it was a complete 100% forgone conclusion that every Adolf Hitler 1933 enamels were bad. Even though I have never owned one.
And in my opinion the party pin that I pictured looks like a good one, but I wpuld not say beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is.
The party pin I posted shows every detail of a transitional period party pin.
I am just trying to figure out if it is a automatic that a pin with the RZM and Ges Gesch could not and would not of ever been produced in the transitional years of produciton.
Is it a sure thing that it could of never happened ?
I agree with the previous post this is a interesting discussion. And I am just trying to make sure I get it straight and learn something. So I thank all of the people who have posted to this thread.
Regards,
Jack

[Erwin]

Hello everyone,

Very interesting stuff. I would just like to say in defence of my badge that the enamel work is quite fine.



The picture doesn't do the red enamel justice, I think the bright light is to blame. There is quite uniform pebbling under the enamel and the rays are rather well defined, unlike the badge at the link mentioned earlier: https://www.dkelley.net/Hitler_Youth...ugend%20HJ.htm

I'll admit it's a bit salty, but it looks as if at one stage of its life it was a quality piece.

Anyway, it doesn't owe me much and I'm not going to be offended if anyone calls it a fake. Can anyone post a picture of a known 'real' one so we can all see what a genuine HJ badge looks like?

Thanks, Erwin

[Garry M.]

Just a little more on whether these can be legitimate with an RZM stamp: The 'type 1' HJ membership badge with the rising sun continued to be worn by the old guard of the HJ as a tradition badge after the introduction of the diamond-shaped HJ membership badge (both were worn together on the uniform). In 1934 the HJ-Ehrenzeichen was introduced which replaced the rising sun badge as the tradition badge. However, regulations show that permission was given to the old guard to continue wearing the old badge but only on civilian clothing. This is again confirmed in an RJF regulation dated 18.2.1938 and even as late as 1940 the book 'Aufbau und Abzeichen der Hitler-Jugend' shows that this exception was still extant. This means then that production of these badges must have continued well into the RZM period (and therefore through the transitionary period) to cater for those entitled to wear it.

Read more: http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f28...our-badge-353/

[Wim Vangossum]

That's true, Garry. But we still have to find this traditionsabzeichen with the correct maker mark. In the late thirties that would be a combination of M1/.... and the RZM - mark. In transitional period that would be a number in combination with the RZM mark.

I do have a big problem with badges that only have a clear rzm mark in combination with Ges. Gesch. and then... nothing more? Early in the period there were badegs only marked Ges. Gesch. Or even completly plain reverses. But when there is a clear RZM mark, they had to follow the rules I guess and put their code on it, so they could be controlled. Don't think the RZM would have allow this "hiding" combination.

Regards, Wim

[Jo Rivett]

The badge that started this thread off is a Typical early fake.
Here is a picture of a Transitional Period HJ showing the RZM plus makers number BUT, with 23 sun rays !
And here is an early one showing only 15 sun rays
I have had these with 15, 17, 19, 21, 23 sun rays, from all periods.

Weitze had also a nice original two weeks ago, rully RZM and maker marked (A genuine one) and of course they also have a FAKE up for sale here...

[Wim Vangossum]

The badge that started this thread off is a Typical early fake.
Here is a picture of a Transitional Period HJ showing the RZM plus makers number BUT, with 23 sun rays !
And here is an early one showing only 15 sun rays
I have had these with 15, 17, 19, 21, 23 sun rays, from all periods.

Weitze had also a nice original two weeks ago, rully RZM and maker marked (A genuine one) and of course they also have a FAKE up for sale here...

It all make sense. Was the good Weitze normally marked with the M1/ code? That bad one is the typical M1/4 fake that exist in all enamels, not?

Regards, Wim

[Jo Rivett]

Wim, here is Weitzes Original post RZM period, note 20 sun rays ! I heard many HJ collectors tell that only 19 sun rays is Original, which is total BS.

[Wim Vangossum]

Wim, here is Weitzes Original post RZM period, note 20 sun rays ! I heard many HJ collectors tell that only 19 sun rays is Original, which is total BS.

Thanks for the link!

Regards, Wim