Early Hitler Youth Badge, Real?

[Erwin]

Hello

Heres an early HJ badge that I think is the real deal, but I can't say for sure. What's your opinon?

[Wim Vangossum]

I don't like it very much. But let 's hear what the HJ guys have to say.

Regards, Wim

[blutundehre]

I may be wrong, but I don't think an RZM mark should be on the same badge as Ges. Gesch.
Dave.

[Woolgar]

I may be wrong, but I don't think an RZM mark should be on the same badge as Ges. Gesch.
Dave.

Agreed

Nick

[dolchmann07]

Pin

I am not a HJ guy, but the pin is good. IMO. They did put ges Gesch and RZM on the same pins early on. While this pin has been reproduced this is not one of them, it is correct and common. So common that the real thing would not cost much more than a reproduction in my world.
Jack

[blutundehre]

I am not a HJ guy, but the pin is good. IMO. They did put ges Gesch and RZM on the same pins early on. While this pin has been reproduced this is not one of them, it is correct and common. So common that the real thing would not cost much more than a reproduction in my world.
Jack

Hi Jack,
I thought I read somewhere, that, for party pins this was a no-no and figured this carried over to these as well. Is this incorrect info?
Dave

[Dean88]

I don't like it very much. But let 's hear what the HJ guys have to say.

Regards, Wim

sorry but i agree. it just does`nt look right.

[Wim Vangossum]

If my memory serves me right, I think it is possible that Ges. Gesch. can be combinated with the RZM logo because this badge was worn and was still available as a traditionsabzeichen after the introduction of the HJ diamond.
I only have problems with that tilted "Z" in the logo what reminds me on the fake slogan badges.
What about the front? Does the sun ray design match originals?

Regards, Wim

[Darin S.]

Here is some information from Wim Saris regarding this type of badge.


"This example is the first official HJ-symbol. This style member badge, was in fact at first worn on the HJ-headgear. In late 1931 the only official manufacturer was Otto Baudermann from Erlbach. His design was a ges.gesch product. Wearing an unmarked version was officially forbidden. All this was noted in the Verordnungsblatt der Reichsleitung der NSDAP from December 31, 1931.

The Baudermann made badge with prongs on the reverse has 19 rays, the Assmann made badge also has 19 rays. The official drawing also has 19 rays.
But, in some periodicals the drawings of the badge is shown with 15 and 17 rays, indicating possibly being made by another manufacturer. All of these should have the safety-pin type attachment and were meant to be worn as the traditions-badge for a short period. This was replaced by the traditions litzen on the Gebiet triangle.
Observing available photographs it is only the larger version (2,2-2,3 cm in diameter), that was worn on the headgear, until this was replaced by the diamond shaped insignia.

In 1932 Assmann was also authorized to manufacture this badge.
Early types will not have RZM markings. Assman made this badge as early as 1930, even though they were not permitted to. They were even repremanded for making this badge without authorization.
Begining September 8, 1933 the diamond type member badge was officially ordered to be worn and the first type became the Traditionsabzeichen (in 1934). Badges made after that date should have an RZM code.
The wearing of the first type with sun symbol on headgear was strictly forbidden after that date."

[blutundehre]

Here is some information from Wim Saris regarding this type of badge.


"This example is the first official HJ-symbol. This style member badge, was in fact at first worn on the HJ-headgear. In late 1931 the only official manufacturer was Otto Baudermann from Erlbach. His design was a ges.gesch product. Wearing an unmarked version was officially forbidden. All this was noted in the Verordnungsblatt der Reichsleitung der NSDAP from December 31, 1931.

The Baudermann made badge with prongs on the reverse has 19 rays, the Assmann made badge also has 19 rays. The official drawing also has 19 rays.
But, in some periodicals the drawings of the badge is shown with 15 and 17 rays, indicating possibly being made by another manufacturer. All of these should have the safety-pin type attachment and were meant to be worn as the traditions-badge for a short period. This was replaced by the traditions litzen on the Gebiet triangle.
Observing available photographs it is only the larger version (2,2-2,3 cm in diameter), that was worn on the headgear, until this was replaced by the diamond shaped insignia.

In 1932 Assmann was also authorized to manufacture this badge.
Early types will not have RZM markings. Assman made this badge as early as 1930, even though they were not permitted to. They were even repremanded for making this badge without authorization.
Begining September 8, 1933 the diamond type member badge was officially ordered to be worn and the first type became the Traditionsabzeichen (in 1934). Badges made after that date should have an RZM code.
The wearing of the first type with sun symbol on headgear was strictly forbidden after that date."

Thanks for the info. I never knew the transition from early to late insignia, however, my question remains, can this badge have both an RZM stamp(especially with no RZM number) as well as Ges. Gesch?

@Jack.
Do you have any pics of the reproduction you spoke about in you earlier post?
Would be interesting to see.

[Wim Vangossum]

[QUOTE=blutundehre;4285593]Thanks for the info. I never knew the transition from early to late insignia, however, my question remains, can this badge have both an RZM stamp(especially with no RZM number) as well as Ges. Gesch?

The transitional question is handeled by well known reseacher Wilhelm Saris and this work itself is directly based on information from period HJ Verordnungs magazines.
However you raised a good question here: what would be the benefit of a reverse that is only marked with Ges. Gesch. and a single RZM mark with no number or even no M1/ prefix?
Period transitional party pins have at least a number without M1/ prefix in combination with the maker mark. Golden HJ honor awards are often found
with Ges. Gesch. in combination with an rzm stamp but than they are also marked with the M1/ number.
When it comes to the early HJ badge you would assume the following versions:

-With full written firm name (with or without Ges. Gesch. ?)
-Only Ges. Gesch.
-Ges. Gesch. with an RZM mark and a single number without the M1/ prefix?

Considering the badge of this thread: It close resembles the fake slogan badges with the tilted "Z" in the rzm logo.

Regards, Wim

[blutundehre]

[QUOTE=Theo Cuypers;4285751]

Thanks for the info. I never knew the transition from early to late insignia, however, my question remains, can this badge have both an RZM stamp(especially with no RZM number) as well as Ges. Gesch?

The transitional question is handeled by well known reseacher Wilhelm Saris and this work itself is directly based on information from period HJ Verordnungs magazines.
However you raised a good question here: what would be the benefit of a reverse that is only marked with Ges. Gesch. and a single RZM mark with no number or even no M1/ prefix?
Period transitional party pins have at least a number without M1/ prefix in combination with the maker mark. Golden HJ honor awards are often found
with Ges. Gesch. in combination with an rzm stamp but than they are also marked with the M1/ number.
When it comes to the early HJ badge you would assume the following versions:

-With full written firm name (with or without Ges. Gesch. ?)
-Only Ges. Gesch.
-Ges. Gesch. with an RZM mark and a single number without the M1/ prefix?

Considering the badge of this thread: It close resembles the fake slogan badges with the tilted "Z" in the rzm logo.

Regards, Wim

I too have seen 2 of the types of stamping you have mention, but never seen a membership badge, n.s.d.a.p. or H.J., like this or even the RZM w/o prefix and Ges.Gesch which doesn't mean this didn't happen, obviously, but very rare if it did IMO.
Thanks Wim, good discussion.
Dave

[Darin S.]

Begining September 8, 1933 the diamond type member badge was officially ordered to be worn and the first type became the Traditionsabzeichen (in 1934). Badges made after that date should have an RZM code.

I would interpret this to say that any of these first pattern style badges made after September 8th 1933, intended for wear as a tradtions badge prior to the introduction of the traditionslitze for the triangle on June 28, 1934, possibly could be marked both Gesch and RZM. This is a short period of 10 months. The round member badge may no longer have been used as a traditions badge after that point, but was still allowed to be worn by those that were authorized for it.

The RZM mark was introduced by law in December, 1934, effective January, 1935. The HJ diamond was introduced to replace the round badge before this, so it would seem that the "Arbeiter-Jugend" would not be marked with an RZM. The early HJ diamond membership pins didn't have one either. All HJ insignia manufactured after January 1935 should be RZM marked according to regulation.

It's somewhat confusing and everything I've posted in second hand. I'll defer to the guys with really solid badge experience. I'm only begining to study badges, as HJ cloth insignia is really my area of interest.

[Wim Vangossum]

So if we put a few things together we come to the following conclusion:

Enamel in general and this counts alsi for the HJ arbeitjugens): Prior to the RZM they were marked only Ges. Gesch, full written maker marked or combinations of those two plus some stuff was not marked at all.

Transitional period: marked with -often a bit weird- RZM logo and the rzm manufacturer code but without the M1/ prefix. Plus maybe sometimes the Gesch. Gesch. included.

RZM period: rzm logo plus de manufacturer code with the M1/ prefix.

So, a traditionsabzeichen, if they were made, would in the transitional period have a early style rzm logo (often with one circle) combinated with a manufacturer code without M1/ prefix. The early HJ diamond is marked this way.

If the traditionsabzeichen still was available later on it would have the rzm logo plus the manufacturer code with M1/prefix.

IMO nowhere fits such a badge only marked with the RZM logo and the Ges. Gesch. patent mark.

I also thank you guy's for this discussion; this is the way we can learn.


Regards, Wim

[blutundehre]

So if we put a few things together we come to the following conclusion:

Enamel in general and this counts alsi for the HJ arbeitjugens): Prior to the RZM they were marked only Ges. Gesch, full written maker marked or combinations of those two plus some stuff was not marked at all.

Transitional period: marked with -often a bit weird- RZM logo and the rzm manufacturer code but without the M1/ prefix. Plus maybe sometimes the Gesch. Gesch. included.

RZM period: rzm logo plus de manufacturer code with the M1/ prefix.

So, a traditionsabzeichen, if they were made, would in the transitional period have a early style rzm logo (often with one circle) combinated with a manufacturer code without M1/ prefix. The early HJ diamond is marked this way.

If the traditionsabzeichen still was available later on it would have the rzm logo plus the manufacturer code with M1/prefix.

IMO nowhere fits such a badge only marked with the RZM logo and the Ges. Gesch. patent mark.

I also thank you guy's for this discussion; this is the way we can learn.


Regards, Wim

Hey guys,
I'll go along with this. As for the badge that started this thread, I guess it comes down to your gut feeling especially after an in-hand inspection, but as for my first impression, it waves too many red flags. For me, all items are met with the idea that it is a fake, and an item needs to prove it's originality to me before I shell out any money, it sucks that this hobby makes skeptics out of people, but this what happens when greed creeps in. Great discussion gentlemen.
Dave