Originally posted by dolchmann07
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Josef, You make fine points and I can see your point clearer now. But if you look closely the dies are far from Identical. The O's are different and the dot after the "D" and the depth of the enamel. And I think you are saying that this is not the point. But if the dies have changed in the front, I would think they would of changed the back.
But I understand what you are saying and I might need to let this sink in and come back to it. Now another opinion I have is that when they fired up the enamel in the 1930's and the enamel used from the late 1960's on, is a totally different process. It was a far hotter process early on than it is now. But this is a different theory that I figured out when I repaired a enamel pin a few years ago. This and matching the enamel ingredients from then and now, is something that I want to do in the future. I think this will prove a few points one way or another, and the NSDAP party pin is the only pin that this would be viable to do this with. I am talking about full composition analysis.
Now on the "Deutschland Erwache" and "Erst Reich Nun" We are talking about a totally different pin and it is my conclusion that far more fakes exist than real ones. As probably is the case in party pins, but NSDAP party pins are far more common than the other two.
But what I always thought was the higher Z, in the RZM of the fakes was not attributed originally to the fakes, but the people making the fakes using an example, that had the Z in the upper position and no #. It would make more sense to make fakes that actually had the number, they would be closer to correct, than leave it out. Now this may seem far fetched. After 30 years of looking at this stuff, I have seen many examples of the RZM variations, and still run into oddball pieces. Like my recent posting of a Luftwaffe Dagger hanger that was RZM marked.
I hope you do not think that I am arguing with you. This is a discussion that is very important to me and I have followed similar discussions for quite awhile.
Jack
But I understand what you are saying and I might need to let this sink in and come back to it. Now another opinion I have is that when they fired up the enamel in the 1930's and the enamel used from the late 1960's on, is a totally different process. It was a far hotter process early on than it is now. But this is a different theory that I figured out when I repaired a enamel pin a few years ago. This and matching the enamel ingredients from then and now, is something that I want to do in the future. I think this will prove a few points one way or another, and the NSDAP party pin is the only pin that this would be viable to do this with. I am talking about full composition analysis.
Now on the "Deutschland Erwache" and "Erst Reich Nun" We are talking about a totally different pin and it is my conclusion that far more fakes exist than real ones. As probably is the case in party pins, but NSDAP party pins are far more common than the other two.
But what I always thought was the higher Z, in the RZM of the fakes was not attributed originally to the fakes, but the people making the fakes using an example, that had the Z in the upper position and no #. It would make more sense to make fakes that actually had the number, they would be closer to correct, than leave it out. Now this may seem far fetched. After 30 years of looking at this stuff, I have seen many examples of the RZM variations, and still run into oddball pieces. Like my recent posting of a Luftwaffe Dagger hanger that was RZM marked.
I hope you do not think that I am arguing with you. This is a discussion that is very important to me and I have followed similar discussions for quite awhile.
Jack
Dont forget Time, die wear and how the badge was ground/polished and aged. But with no doubt, they are made on the same Dies.
Well i have another take, and it is this. Repro sellers, like Morigi, have never intended to fool, he has never advertised Fakes as Original.. it is all left up to the buyer to decide. And with his pieces, he added, on purpose, small Things that are a giveaway .... I could expand on this if you like.
The Higher Z is a RZM Schutzmarke that i have never, without exception, ever observed on a GENUINE Party badge. ► I mean these ◄
Yes there are plenty of Oddball pieces and marks, but they do NOT look like these, and can all be explained without having to grab at straws or look for reasons why someone did this and not that, or why a faker would do whatever he did.... It is simple really, just like the fake Sympathy badge i mentioned, people want to know what and why and where, a member hosts a picture from a early fakers catalog and the situation is cleared up... just like these.. a morigi Fake and in cases Fantasy badges, that's all.
I cant comment on daggers, i would not know a good SS dolch if it was rammed up my backside, sideways. I have only been studying the NSDAP Membership badge, and early NSDAP Paperwork.
update: ► HERE ◄ Sometimes, esp. if the pictures taken are not from the same angle it can be hard, but in this case Easy, and with no question of a doubt, the same front die. Note:
•The Cut off bottom of the letter S
•The Letter N
•The letter E
If you could take a full on picture of your badge, i could ask the seller who is auctioning the fake for better larger pics, and show you even more... i will go so far as to Promise you $100.- if i am wrong.
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