Nune erst recht + Deutschland Erwache with ???

[Jo Rivett]

The RZM marking's were written into law Dec. 20 1934 requiring manufacturers display the new logo as proof of permit, requiring approval and standardization on RZM controlled party related uniforms, equipment, badges and insignia commencing on Jan. 16 1935. John

Oh, so the Period Reichszeugmeisterei (RZM) Announcements from the Reichsschatzmeister in 1933, stating how makers must mark there items, in fact warning makers over and over again how they Must mark their items.. are all wrong?

This period evidence is wrong?

The RZM verordnung (Heimtückische angriffe ...etc etc) from 21 March 1933 is wrong?

And all the RZM announcements from 1933 stating very clearly that it was not allowed to produce PARTEIAMTLICHE GEGENSTÄNDE (official Party items) without a proper RZM zulassung (License) are wrong?

Sorry James, but i try and believe Period black and white facts before i turn to Wikipedia or some "Reference book" written by "someone" who claims to have the facts straight. So i don't need to argue with you or anyone , facts are facts, and they are in front of us, in Books and announcements that were written in 1933 and not in 2005 !

see: Verordnungsblatt der Reichleitung der NSDAP 15/33 (folge 48) from the 31st May 1933.
see: Verordnungsblatt der Reichleitung der NSDAP (same as above) from 31st July 1933.

we have to be careful and not generalize too much, as Any change back then came slow, and took long to implement nation wide, BUT, to even THINK for one moment that the RZM mark can only be found on badges produced after late 1934, is Blind. It is proved that they were in use in 1933 !

This is no "excuse" for fantasy badges like the DE 1933 with RZM logo of course, but this is the Reality and it did happen. I am aware that most Reference books give the opinion that it was only from late 1934 onwards,,,, that's wrong though.

[sjl]

Hey Fuess,

I guess it's my old RZM guide you are talking about. In the intro I said it wasn't the be all and end all authority, just a helpful guide as nothing much was available to the average collector. A lot more information has recently become available. I would still love to publish facsimile editions of the major RZM regs.

There was an RZM set up as early as 1933, but the issue is whether the "Schutzzeichen" (RZM logo) was actually used before becoming mandatory in the December 1934 law. If you have documents that show they were, in the spirit of sharing knowledge we would all love to see them. Attach a couple of pages, as it is not accessible to most of us. Quoting pages from primary sources is of little use without seeing them. I for one am always willing to learn and have never had any illusions about my perfection.

[Jo Rivett]

Hey Fuess,

I guess it's my old RZM guide you are talking about.

Hi Stephen, no, i was`nt even thinking about yours.. i`ll get it out though and have a read through later Not just books, but Wiki and anything on the RZM. It is very complicated, and like i said, this "Definite Transition period 1934" has resulted because of it.
Well, ZM laws were clear on how makers should mark certain NSDAP products, there are announcements from before the 33 take over stating who is allowed to produce what, and how it must be marked. During 1933, we find only the RZM referring to makers as: "They must use the AMTLICHE logo" This goes back to the very beginning of the RZM which was not found in 1934 but in 1933, under that name, the RZM. So the question is, "What was this "Amtliche, (official) logo they were told to mark their items with? It can only be referring to the RZM logo, as this was also in place in 1933, and not a new development in late 1934 as is lead to believe. Remember that there were only a very few makers who were actually allowed to produce certain items around that time. (Of course many more were, because of lax laws , control and other things)

Take the Party badge for example, shortly before the take over, in 33, it was told that only 5 makers were allowed to make this Badge.

So just using the Party badge (not sympathy or slogan pins) we find early markings in conjunction with the RZM logo as follows:

N + number; N° + number, Nr + number and so on. All from Makers who were far apart from each other and not working together. Until now, most believe that these were all from the Transitional period 1934. When we observe other Transitional Badges, we find a clear unison of marks, different styles of course as is to be expected, but all the same, RZM plus the Berechtigungsscheinnummer. And the early-mid 1933 period RZM notices do Clearly show makers with Berechtigungsscheinnummern such as N+number.....
So ask yourself, When did we ever see a Badge marked N9 (for example) with NO RZM mark???????? we only find badges numbered N,N°,Nr in conjunction with the RZM logo.

We also know that RZM licenses were given to makers at the start of 1933, in my opinion these will be the few makers who already had permission, or a contract from the ZM days. So it is absolutely certain that at the beginning of 1933 certain makers held a RZM license. (This is written about over and over in 1933 RZM announcements, telling makers to do "this and that" or loose their RZM license.

Stephen, you know that when i have a problem with any certain book, i would say so, regardless of who wrote it, so yours is safe, and actually quite enjoyed by me, but i guess not many people bought it though, as the fake you show of the M1/128 badge .. was published by Tucker a few years later as a REAL badge and what about the Fantasy SS zivilabzeichen ? that still many members here think is real? also in your book as a Fantasy piece? we could go on.

So the Storal of the Mory is: The RZM did not spring into place in 1934 and develop a logo in late 1934 that from Dec. onwards became law to include on badges etc, this was earlier. RZM licenses were issued in early 1933, along with directives on how to mark badges.. and also we know that many did not follow the RZM rules that well, so there were always repetitive notices from the RZM concerning this matter.

And let us not forget that "funny" period in between, the MA period, where the License numbers had MA before them, and not just M. There are also no facts about:

•If this applied Nationwide
•When it started and exactly when it finished
•How makers were actually marking their items at this time, ie: MAxxx or M xx or just RZM logo and name?

and many more questions. So it is a Theory, but based on Facts and absolutely possible when we consider the announcements coming from the RZM during 1933. Even older announcements in 1934 stating how items should be marked Almost always fall back on 1933 directives, when the R-schatz-M is repeating an old announcement made in 1933.

[sjl]

Thanks Josef,

I have sought in vain for the first published example of the RZM logo or "Schutzzeichen" we are familiar with. The different earlier word "Amtliche logo" may indicate that it was different that the final "Schutzzeichen", but that is just conjecture until a period graphic is found in the regs. I can't assume it is the same logo until we can trace its first use.

The RZM certainly existed before the marking legislation in 1934 and the requirement in 1935 as set out in the December 1934 law. The 1937 NSDAP Org Book states that as of August 1, 1930, the RZM was placed under the organizational authority of Schwarz’s Reichsschatzmeisterei. It was likely a transfer from the SA's Zeugmeisterei to the NSDAP as part of controlling the SA's expansion of power.

The question is how the RZM's function may have changed over time. At first it appears to have been just a central procurement office to make bulk purchases and have preferred suppliers. Later it got involved in approving actual design, procurement, price setting, retail control and licensing backed up with the power of the State after Hitler consolidated his control of the state apparatus.

The Law of Dec. 20, 1934 says: "From now on the use of the RZM logo on controlled items is mandatory," which to me indicates that it wasn't before, or that the logo wasn't in use prior to that time.

Any assistance in tracing the first actual appearance and use of the RZM logo would go a long way to solving this mystery.

Nonetheless, the "Sympathizer badges" were unofficial and wouldn't have carried the RZM mark in any event, as as Josef says, they don't appear in any RZM price list I've seen.

[Wim Vangossum]

Keep on you both! Now I'm learning some interesting new things from a misty historical period

Regards, Wim

[dcollect]

so if i understand this topic the 1933 badge is a fake because of the RZM and the other markings on the back ?
so i can say that every badge i find with the exact same markings on the back is a fake too ?

thanks , bjorn .

[Jo Rivett]

so if i understand this topic the 1933 badge is a fake because of the RZM and the other markings on the back ?
so i can say that every badge i find with the exact same markings on the back is a fake too ?

thanks , bjorn .

I cant post pictures here, so i will try and sum it up for you in words.
There are plenty of tell tale marks, attachments and whatnot, With these 1933 Adolf Hitler Badges, and 1933 Deutschland Erwache, there is:

• NO period evidence whatsoever that they ever existed. (We have photos of the smallest, rarest WHW donation pins etc.. but no photos of these. Also not a single mention of them in any Period paper, Magazine, Sales catalog.
With the amount "and the many variants of "makers marks" they were obviously made on a huge scale by many makers, which, once again, when we look, we find NO period evidence that they were ever made.

• They have funny marks on especially with the Seiler from Geldern mark RZM M1/129, and as we known from the RZM papers, Seiler only received a M1 number very late 1938.. so how could his number be on them in 1933?

(the same people who tell you that in this case, Seiler made them in 1939 to commemorate the 1933 take over, which is wrong, never happened, and would not have in 1939. These are the same people who say that the Blue Ludendorff Badges are later made commemorative badges ..yeah right, for a totally different Party that had nothing to do with Hitler and that Hitler hated and never joined or even Visited after his release from jail.

The more you start to go down the road of Investigating, learning the small silly facts and events, the more you will be able to see just how fake these badges are.

The "other" fakes, normal nun erst.. and D-erwache, well they have been going for ages, faked since the end of the war, but easy to spot. See Stewards military for a Good but FAKE deutschland Erwache badge at the moment.

They also vanish from sales catalogs around 1933-1934. Since they were first made in November 1923 (a proven fact when the Nun Erst Badge was born) until they vanish, they were advertised as a NON OFFICIAL badge, for wear by ANYONE, with no party membership required.. so they had Nothing to do with the RZM ever.

I have yet to see ANY sympathy Slogan badge with RZM mark that i could say "could be" real. and i must have handled more than a few thousand, and been specifically into this area for a long time.

(Please dont quote J.R Cones take on them (page 23) or the fact that they still appear in the 2010 Hüsken Kleinabzeichenkatalog, i dont care, Cone did not know much, and Hüsken has more than 1 fantasy/Fake badge in the book.)

Most of the time, once you have learned the small Period facts, it becomes easy to dismiss this small cr4p at first glance, and not listen to any story that a dealer spins you, regardless of how long he tell you he has been collecting for.

[dcollect]

thank you very much for all of this information , again thanks for this forum .

i have a normal NSDAP party badge with the exact same back so i will get rid of it , no copy in my collection .

thanks , bjorn .

[Wim Vangossum]

Hi Bjorn,

J. Fuess is right and this reverse setup with that tilted "Z" in the RZM logo is also used for the common party pin and a big red flag in this case.

Besides this, J. Fuess will certainly agree with me that a "weird" looking RZM logo alone, is no reason to doubt about authenticity when it comes to party pins. Sometimes you find the most crazy errors on originals. Or better: he finds them.


Regards, Wim

[Jo Rivett]

Thanks Josef,

I have sought in vain for the first published example of the RZM logo or "Schutzzeichen" we are familiar with. The different earlier word "Amtliche logo" may indicate that it was different that the final "Schutzzeichen", but that is just conjecture until a period graphic is found in the regs. I can't assume it is the same logo until we can trace its first use.

The RZM certainly existed before the marking legislation in 1934 and the requirement in 1935 as set out in the December 1934 law. The 1937 NSDAP Org Book states that as of August 1, 1930, the RZM was placed under the organizational authority of Schwarz’s Reichsschatzmeisterei. It was likely a transfer from the SA's Zeugmeisterei to the NSDAP as part of controlling the SA's expansion of power.

The question is how the RZM's function may have changed over time. At first it appears to have been just a central procurement office to make bulk purchases and have preferred suppliers. Later it got involved in approving actual design, procurement, price setting, retail control and licensing backed up with the power of the State after Hitler consolidated his control of the state apparatus.

The Law of Dec. 20, 1934 says: "From now on the use of the RZM logo on controlled items is mandatory," which to me indicates that it wasn't before, or that the logo wasn't in use prior to that time.

Any assistance in tracing the first actual appearance and use of the RZM logo would go a long way to solving this mystery.

Nonetheless, the "Sympathizer badges" were unofficial and wouldn't have carried the RZM mark in any event, as as Josef says, they don't appear in any RZM price list I've seen.

Stephen.

Sometimes real Proof only comes after going down many roads, and i am sure that Black and white proof will come.

Lets go back to Facts and think about Supply and demand, with relationship to what is available.

So called Transitional badges are a-plenty, more so than Fully maker marked, and in "almost" equal amounts to the RZM marked badges.
The question about "when" this transitional period was though, is still for the moment up for debate. BUT..... my opinion is that it started in 1933 already.

What i use as well as many other things for this reasoning
Well, Are there "plenty" of fully maker marked and/or Ges. Gesch badges out there, in relationship to the general amount of party badges around? NO. But there are plenty of "Transitional badges"

So therefore, we turn to NSDAP facts, that the Number of NSDAP members between 1919 and April 1932 was around 1 million. This amount SHOT through the roof between April 1932 and November 1933 to reach 4 million !!!!
So at least an extra 3 million (i say 3-5 badges per member, so the total badges needed for this period would be 10-15 million) badges were made between april 1932 and end 1933...... This is how i explain the high amount of transitional badges out there

In April 1933 Hitler imposed a Aufnahmesperre für Neumitglieder, so that there would not be a storm of new members who suddenly wanted to join after the Machergreifung. This was loosened now and then, for the next 6 years, but only Removed totally in 1939.

So i dont see how all the Transitional marked badges can come from ONLY late 1934 to mid 1935, when at that time new members were not allowed to join...

Do you follow me Stephen?? I may even be wrong in that the Transitional Period, (with regards the typical transitional markings) started in 1932 and not 1933. Sure the RZM as such was around for 4-5 years before this anyway, in what function exactly we dont know... also not quite understood is the Zeugmeisterein period with regards markings etc.......

So i couple the Huge Expansion of party members ,3 million New NSDAP members all needing badges in 12 months, with the Known and available badges today, and over the last 30-40 years, and the Ban-Lift of 1939 with relation to the Huge amount of RZM produced badges from around this time that we find today in every corner shop.

Dates and Volume concur .. although your black and white proof has yet to rear it`s head. I prefer facts too, but if you read what i just wrote, it makes sense

I know your theory is from Late 1934 to mid 1935 (after the MA system) but that does not concur with History. Why would so many different makers need to make Transitionally marked NSDAP badges for that specific time when no new NSDAP members could join? There would surely not have been Orders for such huge amounts. BUT, during april 1932 and april 1933 there were 3 million new members who needed them.

Hope i am making sense.

[dolchmann07]

NSDAP pins

Ok, I must be stupid, but I want to hear one of you guys say this.
You talk about a normal party pin with the same markings bringing up red flags. But the enameling looks good on the regular ones I have seen, but what about a buttonhole version, has anyone seen a buttonhole version with the
same markings on the back as the one at the start of this thread ??
I have read this thread 2 times in order and I still feel like I am missing something. But I do not mean to beat a dead horse. I just want to be perfectly clear. Are you guys saying, That any pin with the markings like the first one in this thread, Are ALL bad ? without a doubt and with full evidence.
Thanks
Jack
I am referring to the raised "Z", this pin has the raised Z in the RZM, and Ges Gesch and nothing else.
So the transitional period could not of covered a time when manufacturers were Begining to conform, by putting the RZM marking and not getting it absolutely perfect and the exact numbers for each maker were not assigned.
I do not remember each and every maker, making the RZM symbol and lettering absolutly perfect. And what is a transitional period anyway. A period for working out the bugs in a system. Making sure everyone got it right, making sure the contracts were signed and the product was within specifications ??? This is just my opinion, but I feel I am hearing this in Black and White and it is sort of Grey.
Wait, I went back and looked there is more about Torstens first post that I do not like other than the RZM marking. This point in my discussion actually goes back to another thread on the early HJ Deutsche Arbeiter Jugend pin. But my question is actually more about just having the RZM and Ges Gesch and no number and the raised z, in the RZM. But I wanted to be clear that I am not talking about the face of the first post, but only the reverse and similar regualr NSDAP party pins I have seen in the past. And I have handled several hundred good party pins.

[Jo Rivett]

Ok, I must be stupid, but I want to hear one of you guys say this.
You talk about a normal party pin with the same markings bringing up red flags. But the enameling looks good on the regular ones I have seen,

Forget the "good" enamel. Remember now that these are from the early 1970`s, and although the same guy is still having them made today, the enamel work was good on the early ones. Like everything, just look at the quality of work that DESCHLER for example produced later on, absolutely shocking and woulöd not have been accepted during 1920-1945.. that it the way the world has moved, quantity and not quality.

but what about a buttonhole version, has anyone seen a buttonhole version with the
same markings on the back as the one at the start of this thread ??

Forget this, it could be replaced later. All the main Dealers in Europe (and i am sure the USA) have middle men they go to to have enamel repaired, or pins/attachments replaced and you will NEVER EVER see them advertise a badge saying "Pin has been professionally replaced. You can do this, i can do this, and so can the person who owned this badge 20 years ago. Besides, the badge you show has definitely had this added later, that is clear by the amount of Fluron used. (solder)

That any pin with the markings like the first one in this thread, Are ALL bad ? without a doubt and with full evidence.

The full evidence is in the early Morigi Catalogs that show all forms of small enamel with these exact same markings on Just like a previous thread here last week of a small sympathy badge marked RZM 41.. and members showed an Old USA Repro catalog offering that exact same marked badge for sale for $3.-

So the transitional period could not of covered a time when manufacturers were Begining to conform, by putting the RZM marking and not getting it absolutely perfect and the exact numbers for each maker were not assigned.

Well, very few Manufacturers actually made the badge themselves, before the RZM days i am sure lots did, that is why we find really sloppy work, many variations attachments etc etc... but after the RZM took full control, Subcontractors were used (this is proven), makers who made party Badges for many different makers using the same dies. IMHO this was "wanted" by the RZM to cut down all the sizes, variations etc etc, and "standardize" the Party badge.
Of course there are makers who would have made the whole thing from start to finish, take Deumer for example, they had their own Estamperie, Enamel factory and Small badge factory... but as for the others, well the makers mark on the reverse is no indication that that maker had anything to do with that badge. It would be Made to order... Planchet made at one place, sent to an Emaillieranstalt-emaillierwerk to be enameled, and then sent somewhere else to have a pin soldered on.. so they were in fact Middle men, just handling orders.

I found out from W.Saris last week that if you had a RZM M1. number, this would also entitle you to produce for other makers without the need of a M2 number.

So the RZM acted like the later LDO (from 1941) they wanted to cut down the many variants.

By the way, RZM numbers, or Berechtigungsscheinnummern / Zulassungsnummern etc etc, call it what you want, were issued before 1934 to certain makers. The RZM announcements shed more light here, but as far back as mid 1933 i found notices from the RZM saying that people would loose their License/Number if they did not do ....this and that.... and as far back as the Zeugmeisterei days from 1928, certain makers were "Official" makers for the Nazis, so they would have had numbers too.
The whole M1/ code list as we know it today, did not start in 1935. (only the MA then later M1 prefix came later end 1934 - mid 1935)

[Jo Rivett]

► Here is your Fake badge shown with one being offered now, identical dies ◄
And if you compare it to others, the early Morigi fakes, you will find, without a shadow of a doubt, that they are all identical.

[Jo Rivett]

And, ► Here is the early Morigi Fakes ◄ you will see the birth of the Fatansy SS Zivilabzeichen here, the Fantasy B in circle marked badges, the RZM and Ges. gesch marked badges like yours..... and the RZM marked SSFM Ehrennadel.

Bottom left on that catalog picture, you will see the Fake Deutschland Erwache badge, that is being offered as Genuine right now on Stewards Military.... ► HERE ◄ (i could not find it on their site anymore, so i use the pictures i once found, if they have a problem with it, then pls feel free to delete the link.

[dolchmann07]

► Here is your Fake badge shown with one being offered now, identical dies ◄
And if you compare it to others, the early Morigi fakes, you will find, without a shadow of a doubt, that they are all identical.

Josef, You make fine points and I can see your point clearer now. But if you look closely the dies are far from Identical. The O's are different and the dot after the "D" and the depth of the enamel. And I think you are saying that this is not the point. But if the dies have changed in the front, I would think they would of changed the back.
But I understand what you are saying and I might need to let this sink in and come back to it. Now another opinion I have is that when they fired up the enamel in the 1930's and the enamel used from the late 1960's on, is a totally different process. It was a far hotter process early on than it is now. But this is a different theory that I figured out when I repaired a enamel pin a few years ago. This and matching the enamel ingredients from then and now, is something that I want to do in the future. I think this will prove a few points one way or another, and the NSDAP party pin is the only pin that this would be viable to do this with. I am talking about full composition analysis.
Now on the "Deutschland Erwache" and "Erst Reich Nun" We are talking about a totally different pin and it is my conclusion that far more fakes exist than real ones. As probably is the case in party pins, but NSDAP party pins are far more common than the other two.
But what I always thought was the higher Z, in the RZM of the fakes was not attributed originally to the fakes, but the people making the fakes using an example, that had the Z in the upper position and no #. It would make more sense to make fakes that actually had the number, they would be closer to correct, than leave it out. Now this may seem far fetched. After 30 years of looking at this stuff, I have seen many examples of the RZM variations, and still run into oddball pieces. Like my recent posting of a Luftwaffe Dagger hanger that was RZM marked.
I hope you do not think that I am arguing with you. This is a discussion that is very important to me and I have followed similar discussions for quite awhile.
Jack