Horse Plaques and Badges

[naxos]

You are entitled to your opinion. Why you think that fine tombak pieces and high grade silver pieces were struck by others but S&L minted only zink ... .

Because Lauer manufactured the Badges since 1932 in bronze and silver - S&L started manufacturing Reiter- and Fahrerabzeichen around 1942 when Lauer as well had switched to zinc badges only.

Suggesting S&L made no tomak Reiter related badges is IMHO absurd.

No, it's not considering they started in 1942

[Brian S]

Now look at an S&L clasp declared "good" hardware compared to mine. Difference in type and dimple is what? You KNOW when S&L started producing sport badges? Wow. Great to know where that is coming from, please share. Dimple and scratches are nearly identical if not identical.

[naxos]

Now look at an S&L clasp declared "good" hardware compared to mine. Difference in type and dimple is what? ... Dimple and scratches are nearly identical if not identical.

Brian, we had this discussion before - the badge is not a fake! I is made, as Norm pointed out, by S&L (and I might add, beautifully executed).

The only thing I say is that it was manufactured after 1945. I consider them scarcer and much nicer then pre 1945 S&L Rider/Driver badges. The badge with the "R" was never outlawed by post-war Germany. The German Horse Association simply changed its name after the war and hence dropped the "R" on the badge.

[Brian S]

Because Lauer manufactured the Badges since 1932 in bronze and silver - S&L started manufacturing Reiter- and Fahrerabzeichen around 1942 when Lauer as well had switched to zinc badges only.



No, it's not considering they started in 1942

Please explain this startling revelation to the neophytes among us. It's 1942, every able bodied woman and man is called into active service for training. Fighting in all directions requires attention to combat badges of all types, and S and L turns its attention, now in 1942, to sport badges.

Coincidentally, that was the year my mother was drafted into the Heer at age 16 for signals. She was an avid horse rider and participated in numerous shows up to that time and had to give it up for active service.

Could you state your sources or are you just getting perverse pleasure out of calling my badge a postwar piece?

And, you may be correct, maybe it is postwar, but your statement that S and L made only zinc badges because of a date you subscribe to them does not make this badge postwar.

You do this hobby no favor by making unsubstantiated blanket statements so please state your sources for accuracy.

[Norm F]

Sorry Guys, I didn't mean to open a can of worms.

It's just that that narrow block hinge and pin combination with the eccentric pin side-soldered to the central barrel is associated with S&L tombak manufacture both of '57s and of post-war wartime design badges. Even without the classic scrape. To my knowledge, in Kriegsabzeichen, it doesn't appear on any of S&L's verifiable early tombak badges. But hey, I'm willing to entertain some doubt. Perhaps Tom Durante could confirm or refute.

But for sure no one would suggest it's anything but a true S&L tombak product.

Attached are a '56 PAB and an S&L post-war tombak IAB for comparison.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Hardy, just occurred to me, the background of those photos makes me a bit nervous. These photos weren't by chance from Staegemeir's site were they?

No Norm, I don't believe so.

Hi Hardy,

Back to the "4"-marked silver Fahrerabzeichen in post #111, the photography style and background look mighty like Staegemeir. The setup is atypical for S&L, and it's a setup that Staegemeir is known to have copied before. And Staegaemeir loves to put fake PK numbers and LDO numbers into badges as well. Combined with the weak detail in the reverse, and that we don't see any other examples of "4" markings in round wire pins of S&L, all these factors have to raise concerns I think?

I really don't mean to be a thorn in anyone's neck. I just feel these questions have to be asked and hashed through. We have to be constantly vigilant in the Staegemeir era. Good intellectual debate and all.

Best regards,
---Norm

[naxos]

Hi Hardy,

Back to the "4"-marked silver Fahrerabzeichen in post #111, the photography style and background look mighty like Staegemeir. The setup is atypical for S&L, and it's a setup that Staegemeir is known to have copied before. And Staegaemeir loves to put fake PK numbers and LDO numbers into badges as well. Combined with the weak detail in the reverse, and that we don't see any other examples of "4" markings in round wire pins of S&L, all these factors have to raise concerns I think?

I really don't mean to be a thorn in anyone's neck. I just feel these questions have to be asked and hashed through. We have to be constantly vigilant in the Staegemeir era. Good intellectual debate and all.

Best regards,
---Norm

Not at all Norm - I really appreciate your input. You bring up a good point and it does look like the same background!

I will make some new pictures and post them here, perhaps someone else has a similar badge.

That's what it is all about, a "good intellectual debate"

[naxos]

Brian, no need to get upset

The award of the bronze rider badge during the war rather increased. Not until 1944 the numbers started to drop below 5000 a year. The latest award document I have seen was of a Riders badge in bronze awarded on January 4, 1945.

In the eight years from January 1932 to February 1940, 44600 Rider badges in bronze were awarded. That is 5575 badges a year.

In 1941 about 6000 Rider/bronze were awarded
In 1942 the number was again close to 6000 Rider/bronze awarded
Over 5000 in 1943 ...
... and 4240 in 1944


.

[naxos]

Here is a tombak S&L I own, that I believe to be manufactured by Steinhauer & Lück after 1945.

[cdrinnon]

Naxos,

Could you also post a picture of the reverse of the badge?

Thanks,

Chad

[Brian S]

Brian, no need to get upset

The award of the bronze rider badge during the war rather increased. Not until 1944 the numbers started to drop below 5000 a year. The latest award document I have seen was of a Riders badge in bronze awarded on January 4, 1945.

In the eight years from January 1932 to February 1940, 44600 Rider badges in bronze were awarded. That is 5575 badges a year.

In 1941 about 6000 Rider/bronze were awarded
In 1942 the number was again close to 6000 Rider/bronze awarded
Over 5000 in 1943 ...
... and 4240 in 1944


.

Sources please.

[Brian S]

No Norm, I don't believe so.

Whose badges are you showing and what are your sources of data? Be nice to see all your badges on top of today's newspaper, or even yesterday's newspapers, or last month's newspapers. I'm not arguing with someone who's pulling photos and data from unknown sources.

[naxos]

Sources please.

Me

... the data is garthered from original award document numbers. I can post scans of the original documents to support my data.

[naxos]

Whose badges are you showing .

Mine (past and present)

[naxos]

Naxos,

Could you also post a picture of the reverse of the badge?

Thanks,

Chad

For years I believed this to be a pre 1945 (but the badge in this material was IMO not produced during the war by S&L also the needle set-up indicates post war). It is never-the-less a beautiful badge and highly collective.